Must be a new Grand American Record!

Sixty Three 200's with 1829 entries. Let's make everybody a winner!

Bruce Bowen
Sturgis South Dakota

 

Can't remember seeing as many 100's in the cap's as what there were this year either

 

back to 3 hole trap I say!
5 hole for shoot offs!
:>

 

Remember the shoot off between Foster & Leo 800 ea. 4 flats of ammo @ today's $$$ -is it worth it for a trophy and or All American points--the ATA is dying faster than ever--went to a local Walmart $10.48 + tax for the cheap stuff

 

Even some diehard shooters that for YEARS have said the narrow angles didn’t jack up the scores are now questioning their own previous statements.

If they ever opened up the angles THEY WILL NEVER DO IT, you wouldn’t need to change anything for shoot offs

Besides, how are you going to get a Pat trap, that can’t throw the equivalent of a “3 hole” target to throw a “5 hole” target?

 

Pat trap can throw a 3 hole target, why do you think it can't.

 

GOD BLESS Winchester western 5 holers!
its why I wont get rid of mine.
good ole fashion American trap.
ya cant kill em.

 

I think 2 hole came about so more kids could get free scholarships,
graduate....then dump trap, only to take up culinary arts instead.
im sure along that entire road, everyone lines their pockets and makes it a very lucrative business.
see, its my opinion, trap isn't about finding talent and watching them become champion shooters, etching their names into history to be remembered, over time.
there is a hidden agenda behind it all instead, involving AEA, colleges and high schools rubbing elbows all the way to the bank.
thus why so much emphasis is placed on youth and scholastic competitions, all the time being disguised and passed off as keeping the sport alive for the next generation. no, its about keeping the education system alive.
with 40+ years training shooters, its my opinion and im sticking to it.

 

Bobski. The 1524 was the ultimate clay target machine. None can come close to their target presentation. Roger C.

 

roger, I agree. the v1574 and v1577 electric are as good too.

 

With a 3-hole aluminum spacer bar, or just widen the limit switches.

 

how long would that take for a trap boy to do? just curious if its something that could be done in between events fast.

 

Yep

 

That would be like trying to get the CCP to hold an honest election. Never gonna happed Roger C.

 

Lets see if I got this straight. Since you guys know a lot more about Pat traps than I do.

So, to make a Pat throw a target that looks like a 3 hole it needs a “3 hole spacer bar”. I assume that means that a trap WITHOUT said “3 hole spacer bar” CANT throw a target that is the same angle as the old 3 hole Win traps? Well how about that!

You aren’t going to see any 3 hole angles because the people that make those decisions are NEVER going to make modifications to all the traps they bought for that place to widen back up the angles. Besides, they don’t like egg on their face or eating crow. It makes them look stupid, see moving to that white elephant, and they sure as heck don’t want to look stupid. News Flash boys, you already look stupid.

I don’t care if it would take 1 second to put some kind of spacer bar on the trap. We will ALL be dead and long gone before the ata EVER throws a target that would be the equivalent of a 3 hole angle, let alone a 5 hole. If you have any kids they will be dead and gone too.

And, just so you guys can enlighten me further, would all the arms have to be changed to longer ones to throw a more consistent target?

 

It is really easy to move limit switches to as wide as you want the only thing a spacer bar does is allows you to move each equal distance from center. So, angles would be equal. I don't believe that will happen though, but it is certainly able to be done. You cannot put a longer arm on without extensive remodeling of the turret.

 

So you really don’t need a longer arm to throw a consistent target?
OR, it would make a difference but it would cost too much?

 

You said a pat trap can't throw a 3 hole target and you where told that it can,also told how to do it. Whether the ATA would ever go back to a 3 hole that's a whole different discussion. Our club has two pat traps and has no problem throwing a consistent target so a longer arm not needed.

 

Well gee wizzz, guess you told me. Give yourself a Gold star.

My club has 5 and a gentleman who knows a lot more about Pat traps than you, or me, told me that Pat traps NEVER threw consistent targets and they needed a longer arm to make that happen.

Since “your club owns” all of TWO, I’ll take his word for it.

BTW, how was that shoot in ILLnews that used to be the grand? You go there right?

I saw your other post about the EASY targets they threw there. When the guy said they were easy you asked “how did you do on those easy targets”

Implying that if they were so easy he should have been at the top?

So, how did you do?




​

 

Maybe the guy you know needs to learn how to set targets. I'm not the one claiming that they were easy guy making the claim should be at the top if the targets are so easy. I didn’t do worth a crap and never claimed that the targets were easy.

 

That would imply he doesn’t know how to set targets.

I never met the gentleman face to face but from the 3000+ posts he has put up on this site, and the hundreds of THOUSANDS of targets he has registered, I would say he “knows how to set targets”. And knows more about the workings, repair, and specs of these traps than any other member on this site.

And from the scores shot, those targets sure weren’t hard. LOL

 

I do know that the length of the arm on the Pat traps now was designed to be under the platform of the target turret one for safety, two the whole machine was made to fit in trap houses without extensive remodeling or building new. Probably could have been 2 or 3 inches longer and still worked. As far as consistency for targets I really don't think it is a big issue. A clay placed perfect on a 1524 was great but all you needed was a loader placing it to far up on the arm instead of by the finger or on the finger and any older shooter knows that one will not fly correctly. We all know this happened. I do think there was more spin on them possibly little better in windy conditions.

 

Correction ... Foster & Leo 900 each and were offered a Duel Championship from the ATA BOD.

 

im with fly' on this one.
but I am curious about the electronic option. how long would that take to do? in my bunker, I can take out the 1577's peg-knob in the 2 hole and move it to 3/4/5.. tighten it and Im done in 30 seconds.
as it was done for decades before my time.

 

RN, You do not apparently know what a consistent target looks like. A short arm will not spin the target enough to keep even a small breeze from messing up the target flight.. All regulations for target flight were taken off by the ATA so the pat's could be certified to throw registered targets. The throwing arm was supposed to be on the same level as the shooting stations.
So many things were changed to get those machines in the trap houses, that it was the nail in the coffin of trap shooting. Roger C.

 

you mean there are traps where arms aren't ground level anymore?

 

Many moons ago, I used to ''trap'' the first target. But a good friend of mine told me DO NOT do that with the Pat traps. Reason; they do not throw a consistent target to trap the first target.

 

Rook,
Ain't that the truth. We knew what a good target looked like. I found out the hard way on doubles that you couldn't catch the first target in your peripheral vision and just smoke it without seeing it break before moving to the second target. You couldn't count on it being in the same place.

But that the heck do I know? I only ever had three 98's in doubles. The PA western zone, the Grand, and the Tri State. All in the same year. Yeah, I know what a good target looks like and what "oscillating doubles" look like coming off a Pat.

 

That deal looked good on paper for the boys running the ata. Then, OOPS! Now what?

 

bobski, some clubs just raised the roof. I once took a 1524 and a pat and hooked them both up to the same release cord. The 1524 was 20 feet out of the house before the pat fired. They have a built in slow pull. The Remington doubles trap and the GMV super star threw very good doubles much better than the pat's. I had two Remington doubles traps in the practice traps in Vandalia pat,s were supposed to be next to me, Stewart showed up and watch the Remington for a little while and left. He did not want his machines next to the Remington's, he did not want the comparisons to be made. Roger C.

 

For a few years before I stopped registering targets I shot with four AA guys that knew their way around a trap field. Multiple state and grand trophies and state team members. We were VERY fast on both calling for the target and breaking it.

Years after I had quit paying the ata, ( I didn’t leave the ata, the ata left me) fellow member RVH talked me into rejoining. Just for kicks I did so. I got on his squad with a couple of pretty good shooters including Joel Etchen and the late Glenn Lash. And Mr. RVH is no slouch. The PA state team has his name on it more than a few times. The three of them shot thousand of targets together so I knew they would have a good rhythm and not be one of those squads where some of the squad acted like they forgot when it was their turn to call.

On the very first trap I wasn’t getting a bird when I called. After this happened three times Joel said
“You can’t call as fast as you used too Bud. These Pats won’t fire as fast as old traps your squad was used too. That’s why we all wait a second between calls.”

I apologized for screwing up their timing and waited on the machine for the rest of the hundred. I also thought to myself that it sure was a F’d up design built into that machine.

 

One of many. Roger C.

 

I bumped it just because I like reading it

 

LOL

 

Read these Cardinal Classic numbers and draw your own conclusions. I'll list the numbers of shooters standing on the current fence who won honorary yardage in each Handicap event. Event #3-3/4, Event #5-12/17 Event #7-13/22, Event #9-8/15, Event #11-10/23 and Event #15 12/23. What that means is 27 yard shooters placed in the winners circle (top 3 scores) over 65% of the time. It also means the majority of shooters aren't capable of breaking winning scores from their current yardage on 2-hole targets. So, if you widen the angles the short yardage shooters will still stink but probably stink even more.

 

oleo, SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT? do you recommend one hole targets or all straight away' targets be thrown? It is time some of you wantabe's admit there is no rule that you can change that will give you the ability to be equal to the top shooters. You can not make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. Roger C.

 

That's exactly the point. The vast majority of todays' s shooters are non-competitive wannabe trinket shooters. Top 27 yd shooters are gonna eat their lunch over 65% of the time regardless of what hole the traps are set in. If you want to make handicap challenging enough there is only one answer-move 'em back farther. Anything else is simply putting lipstick on a pig.

 

OLEO Just quite setting fluff targets would make more sense. set them in 3 hole, 10ft as the height, and 50 yard long. and NO RESETS for any one.
Roger C.

 

So, that will equalize the competition in Trapshooting? Wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?

 

You are trying to equalize something that is impossible. You can not equalize a poor shot with a top shot. Roger C.

 

You're right about that, but making them harder will do nothing but run the short yardage people out of the game.

 

So, why even have a Handicap event if it doesn't work?

 

Have a 16yard event, and a 27 yard event, and a doubles event. Shooters must qualify to shoot the 27 yard event. Or leave the events as they are and have every one shoot for the yardage that they are assigned to. No shooter at less than 27 yard line can shoot for money or the championship trophy.
You will rule out sandbaggers at the same time.
Get the gun Mfgers. and ammo Co's to pony up some money to sweeten the 27yard handicap event , so it is desirable to be able to shoot from there. If something is not done very soon trap shooting will fall by the wayside. Roger C.
oleo, It works it separates the good from the not so good.

 

You’ve gotta hand it to the guys that spend their whole lives shooting trap and are on the 20- to 24-yard line and never really win anything. Not the sandbaggers, but people that really try that don’t ever really excel. They must love the game to keep coming back, I don’t think it’d be very popular if you held an event that excluded them, or anyone for that matter. The point is to get more people shooting, not less.

I do agree if the gun and ammo manufacturers put some money up (and some do- look at the Krieghoff handicap in PA)- it would help the sport. It was even better when non-gun companies sponsored shooting events, like the Budweiser handicaps. I don’t know that we will ever see that again, though.

 

Rodge, you can't get anyone to play a dime in options anymore except the big dogs. Today's shooters shoot for trinkets and the old gamblers are dead. Stop living in the past even though I'm there myself. Trapshooting is dying because we're also dying, and Sporting Clays takes most of the sponsorship money. Who's gonna pay to watch a few well fed 27 yd. professional trapshooters duke it out over a shell bag trophy?

 

oleo, That is the attitude that got the sport of trap shooting on a down hill slide. Try and come up with something positive to replenish the sport. Roger C.
The ATA moved all the money to the top few shooters, that is why the average shooter stopped playing the money. One of their many mistakes that they have made over the last 25 years. This is the only sport where the least qualified are elected to lead . Roger C.

 

The spacer bar for setting the angles for the Pat trap is 4 1/4 long which relates to a two hole target,and is supplied with the machine.A home made wood spacer bar measuring 4 1/2 in. Would be closer to a three hole target. 4 3/4 would be challenging.Setting the limit switches farther apart will have the targets hitting the sides of the trap house.
Pat traps are surge fire machines,unlike the winchesters which were solenoid fired.
Most automobile starters have a solenoid which engages the starter to the flywheel and you can see how instantaneous this is
To start the motor.
Can you imagine finding help today to sit in the hot trap house for hours at a time feeding the Winchester hand set machines.

 

From Palos Shooter's post above,

"Setting the limit switches farther apart will have the targets hitting the sides of the trap house".

 

Palos shooter, If that is correct the machines are setting to far back in the house. We have thrown 5 hole targets off of a Winchester 1524 machine. are you saying a 3 hole setting on a Pat trap is wider? Roger C.
That surge fire is another thing that is wrong with the Pat traps. just one of many.

 

Roger,
If you put the limit switches to their farthest apart it will hit the wall of the trap house as it oscillates to the left or right ..We have also changed the rubber bands to the metal springs..
Trying to get a more consisted target.

 

Roger. I am to the point that i am believing the ole dog doesn't comprehend that trapshooting is no different than racing in that the faster you throw the target, the farther it go's and the harder it is to break and in racing the faster you go the harder it is to keep the car on the track. Ollie jumps up on his soapbox and keeps blowing more yardage, more yardage, more yardage. Many gun clubs are struggling to keep their heads above water and you throw pouring more concrete on them and there are going to be many clubs just simply close their doors. On the other hand it would cost the clubs nothing to speed up the targets, and widen the angles and lets see what happens! A good example was when the 1524s came available there were virtually no 100's in doubles because they threw the doubles the same distance as the singles. If my memory serves me correctly in the early days of the 1524's they put 20 or 21 half turns on the spring and by the time Ollie came on the scene they were down to about 14 half turns and by the time the Super Stars and the pat traps came on the horizon they were down to about 10 or 11 half turns.

Also as I have said before to make the handicap system have any chance to work it it must work both ways. If you have mandatory yardage increases you must have mandatory reductions.

Dave Berlet

 

Ollie started shooting in 1963 and set plenty of those old Western traps in the 3 and 2.5 hole and later the 2 hole. How many clubs do you actually believe will need yardage past the current 27 yd line and how many banks will be needed to accommodate all those 30 yd shooters at the large venues? I discussed that with the powers at the top in PA a few years ago and figured maybe one. Everyone knows the doubles are far tougher at 50 yds. than 44 yds but the event is Doubles-not Handicap. The proof is right in front of you. The average guys can't break a winning score from short yardage so penalizing them will move them into Bowling instead of Trapshooting.

 

palos shooter, I understand that but they will not hit the house set to a 3 or 4 hole spread. Roger C.

 

Oleo, You are kicking a dead horse, you will never see a 30 yard line. You sound like sower grapes, because you never made it to the big gun class. you could not compete with them so you complain about their ability. All men are born equal. but that ends when they pick up a gun. No rule can change that. Roger C.

 

Ollie I'm glad you mentioned bowling. Their handicap changes as their average changes. In fact your handicap can change every week. Just because you bowled a 600 series once it doesn't mean that you are a 200 average bowler for the rest of your life. Not having mandatory reductions in trapshooting is about as reasonable as preaching more concrete. How many of the 4-6-8 trap clubs that throw registered targets would add the concrete if the 30 yard line was mandated or would they just say GOOD BY. If you realize that 50yd doubles are harder to break than the short ones doesn't it stand to reason that a 52 yd handicap target would harder to break than a 46-48 yd target would be. You seem to have it all figured out you tell me.

Dave Berlet

 

Well Mr. Dave, the old rule book called for targets to be set from 48-52 yds in still air while the new one calls for targets set between 49 and 51 yds. I doubt one less yard in distance settings has made any change in scoring. If one compares the difference in scoring by targets set in the mid-west and southwest you might be able to say Eastern targets are far harder to break than those in other areas like PA. You could also say mid-west targets are set too soft compared to targets set in the East. Is that by design. We've had a few top All-American shooters come to PA in the past, stick their tails between their legs and vow never to return. So, you're suggesting we change the rulebook and throw the targets 3 yards farther instead of adding more concrete and that will fix a broken Handicap system? BTW, plenty of those smaller clubs have already packed in registered target shooting. You can blame the ATA and its policies for that one-not more concrete.

 

With the 48 yd targets, the 50 yard stake has been removed and lots of clubs are throwing really"soft" targets , anyone wanna bet lots of clubs are throwing 38mph targets--

 

Mr. Dave, over 65% of the yardage increases at Cardinal Center last week were honorary punches to 27 yd. shooters. More than a few top 27 yd. shooters haven't seen a reduction in 20 years. Do you actually believe an additional yard of distance would have slowed Rick Marshall's scoring even a little bit? Getting shooters to be competitive in Handicap might require a 14 yd. Handicap line since we can't reduce them below 16 yds.

 

I was not shooting then, but what about bringing back the "Industry" Class? With computers now, when they send in the scores send in the winnings. Once you hit 1k/yr, boom industry (amount needs to be low to keep the snadbaggers un interested). Industry shoots for Industry money, the rest of us can play against each other? This effectively pulls the top guys out from the rest of us.

I stopped playing options once I realized I had a better rate of return playing Blackjack. Why toss cash into a pot I have a 15% expectation of return on?

 

After reading all the above posts, my future ''doubles ATA / Live bird gun'' is fast becoming a ''Live bird / ATA doubles gun. In that order.

 

Do not converse with oleo. He does not know how to shoot, or set targets. He professes to know how to make poor shooters compete with, and out shoot (the big guy's) In his own mind he is the best. Roger C.

 

I thought you had an answer for making the Handicap event competitive again, but you obviously don't. It's also obvious you want the big dogs to eat the little dog's lunch so you must believe they're so special it's not fair to offer them a challenge. Your foolish answer is to have everyone shoot from the 27 yd line when you can no longer muster a 16 yd score high enough to win anything in Handicap. If viewing a few overweight, well fed professional trapshooters competing for a shell bag from the current fence will save trapshooting I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'll sell you cheap.

 

I do not know how someone that admitted to participating in systemic cheating is even permitted to post here.

Dawg I doubt you have cred on this forum.

 

Yeah, and you were never good enough to carry Frank Little's shellbag.

 

Roger, the rulebook says you can set your targets as wide as you like-not withstanding a 4 or 5 hole. Next year at the delegates meeting inform your delegate to bring up the subject as this is the answer for salvation. I believe you'll be politely ignored.

 

Roger you probably shpuld ease up on the poor ole dawg after all he is a legend in his own mind. Also since he mentioned it I don't believe I ever saw ollie ever carrying Frank's shooting bag?

Dave Berlet

Ollie I believe you are getting your tongue in front of your eye teeth and you can't see what you are saying. I don't remember exactly what year it was, but didn't all the 27yd shooters got a 2yd reduction to start the target year. Yes I am sure more yardage would would make at least some difference on every ones scores. If yardage doesn't make any difference in the scores as you have stated then every one should average the same on both 16yd and handicap now explain that. Could it be that you are hinting that a 14yd handicap might make you competitive, just asking? LOL

Dave Berlet

 

Actually, I got a 3 yard reduction that year. 1 yard for an annual review and 2 yards for being on the 27. I lasted 100 targets on the 24 shooting with my old buddy John Muir.at the Southern Grand and so much for that yard. That would mean it was probably 2014. Would I go to the 14 yd. line if asked-absolutely!

 

In the days of 3 hole targets a 100 is singles meant something ,at local shoots a 95 in HC would be in the money not anymore a dime a dozen now ..... There's no reward for shooting anymore shooters cant get pumped up to go to a big shoot and spend a tub full of money and place and win a plastic pickle dish !!!!!!!!!!!!! I Love the Cardinal but I've been to all three big shoots there and placed several times SHIT trophies ever you could buy them at a flee market for a dollar each, I can give you multiple examples even the Ohio State shoot played the money did not hit the lewis other options did not get my money back you want to fix trap take a lesson from golf local clubs not professional golf its grown leaps and bounds each flight plays for there own money !!!!!!!!!!!within there flight ....... example a B class shooter would be glad to play options againest only B class shooters',there own lewis 25's 50' 100'S HC yardage same !!!!!!!!! Im not talking about flee market trophies. money !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! why would I play options against the best trap shooters in US give me yardage in HC your still not going to win .........Maybe once in a blue moon but not worth it that is why nobody plays options anymore when the reward went away trap started a slow death sure there die hards but people aren't stupid !!!!!!!!!!!!! But it will never happen cause the elite will never let it happen cause it would cut there money 90% just my option , a member since 1994

 

Being a member since 1994 means you're unlikely to have shot many 3-hole targets anywhere. We once had yardage groups, but that system fell by the wayside because fewer people were playing options, so everyone was lumped together for payoffs. Sporting Clays ate Trapshooting's lunch and took away the sponsorship money. Voiice activated systems made back yardage handicap much easier, along with better ammo and quality guns that better handled recoil. Yes, the trophies suck nearly everywhere but everyone wants cheaper targets and throwaway trophies became the norm. If you want to pay another $5 for targets I'm sure the trinket quality would improve.

 

I would gladly pay an extra $5.00 per hundred to have something worthwhile to shoot for. What's another five bucks with what it already cost's. I think it's kind of petty to worry about five bucks when shooting a $10,000 or more shotgun. If five bucks makes or breaks you you should find another hobby!

 

My oldest son attained four All-American teams and has an enormous collection of leather shell bags. I'm sure he'd be willing to part with a few Jr and sub jr ones if you ask him nicely. That said, expensive trinkets tend to get stored in an attic somewhere, but cash spends great. Remember, trapshooters are notoriously cheap, think nothing about spending $10,000 on the latest shooting iron and threaten to quit every time the price of a bag of wads goes up .25.

 

Oleo, The game of trap thrived when the average blue collar worker afford to shoot the game. A man with a house , car payment and children can not spend $200.00 plus dollars on a week end shoot. The shooting industry has not tried to keep the average citizen in this sport. The ATA has failed miserably with their lack of leadership. The motor home crowd does not shoot for money, the pro's do. When the ATA did away with the industry catagory is when the game started down hill. Then the targets were made easier, and the money was moved to high gun.
The average JOE shooter went back to meat shoots and fun and games instead of registering. Roger C.

 

Rog, ATA trap is dying and we might as well just remember it for what it was. I hate to break your heart but Krieghoff cannot produce enough K-80 Sporting Clays guns. If you think last year was bad wait'll this year as target prices are taking a huge increase.

 

Oleo, How much do you think the target prices will increase? Roger C.

 

$4-$5/100 at the moment.

 

Why the increase?

 

White Flyer is substantially raising target prices. Freight cost is through the roof. Vote for Bidum!

 

White flyer was always high on their shipping costs. Roger C.

 

On the nose with freight costs. My buddy owns a 17 truck delivery company. Box trucks for clients that need that type. Box, pickups, flatbeds and 2 boom trucks for delivering building materials for a large wholesaler. Has owned it for 30+ years. His diesel costs have gone from $4,500-$5,000.00 a week to just shy of $10,000.00 per week.

He has had to increase his delivery charges to cover the fuel bills.

 

To start with, double the fuel prices.

 

Do some math. At $5.00 per hundred, that is the same as a $ 6.75 increase per case. Multiply that by a trailer full of targets, and you have much more than DEISEL COSTS. Roger C.

 

Targets are made of limestone and PITCH. Pitch costs money for production and shipping.

 

Oleo, Me thinks you have spent to much time conversing with the late WPT's toaster. Roger C.

 

Well Roger, there you go again-claiming targets are made of fairy dust and a magic binder. I want some of those. You might remember when Remington left the target production business when they lost their pitch supplier. Then again, you probably can't! It's tough when you can remember what you had for breakfast on a certain day 25 years ago but forget how to tie your shoes. It happens to us all eventually.

 

I do remember. I was a Remington distributer for shells and targets. I was also the manufacture for their trap and skeet machines. I stood many times in the plant at Findley and watched targets made. So stick it in your ear with your fairy dust, you do not have a clue as to what I think.
I do think you are a blow hard, that never accomplished much in your life, but bragging about winning one event at a trap shoot. Roger C.

 

I have a box of orange dome rem blue rocks in my trap house as we speak! dated...2008. im tossing them next april. wonder if they will fly?

 

Rog, now I know who invented those disastrous Remington Automatic traps. Those were the ones you called for a target and waited 2 seconds for its arrival. God, I miss working on those.

 

And pat trap copied the flawed design. What have you ever developed? Not counting your telling the fairy tail of how good you were as a trap shooter.
Roger C.

 

Look at the AIM all star teams 33 of 80 are from Illinois. Throw a lot of narrow angles there much?

 

No it won't. But it will stop the events from producing 50 or 60 200x200 scores and endless shootoffs. I think that was his goal.

 

Bc99, The terrible target presentation of the pat trap, is the only thing holding down the scores. That is one reason for the ATA will not enforce the rules.
That is the Dave Kiser legacy.
Oleodawg, There is nothing that can be done to equalize the competition in trap shooting. Class comes the closest to doing that, and it is not perfect.
Roger C .

 

PAT traps suck but the 200 straights in IL may throw water on your theory. BTW, does anyone really care much about Singles except trinket shooters? Handicap trapshooting could work with more concrete.

 

Is this really Ole Ollie or is it Jonny one note?

Dave Berlet

 

Usually at Sparta its windy and targets are up and down but for the 22 grand winds were mostly calm. As one of the 200s.I don't think angles were softer . The thing that helped me was lightning was good and winds were light.
Try shooting in the wind at Tuson AZ. or Odessa FL. and see how many 200s are broke.
Guss

 

short yardage shooters shoot 2 hole targets, elite 27yarders 3 hole targets?