The year 1993 in the ATA

Hey, if you were happy with Taco Bell, so am I.

Just can't say "Thanks for letting be number 300" can ya?

That's fine, tis the Christmas Season.

And the trouble with that 98.28 ? People didn't even know you were there.

 

Flyer's can you do something for me for Christmas, can you make a graph of all of us who posted on this thread. I thought your last two posts were pretty funny.

It's a long way to page 5 from here and I'm afraid this thread is about beat to death, but who knows?

 

Beat too death! I believe Roger and Ollie are just getting warmed up and after they get done playing Santa Claus they will get back into this thread with vim and viger and many more resounding facts pertaining to the subject what ever it was as I don't really remember!!!

Dave Berlet

 

Ya really need to go back to post 100 or 200 to get an idea what Brad was talking about. Actually, I must be getting the Christmas spirit as I'm starting to miss my best bud-Roger already. Ya know, if he wouldn't have let those professional shooters take advantage of 3-hole targets and take the peons money, the ATA would still be in Vandalia and membership would have at least doubled. I know, I feel it in my bones.

 

Merry Christmas



The "everbody else" category is for shooters, I mean posters, that contributed just one or maybe a few posts

As usual I was one behind you know who. Actually, most of the times it was 2 or 3 in singles and 7 or 8 in caps but we aren't shooting anymore so I have that going for me. I was going to put 3 or 4 up before I made this just to get ahead of him but that would be cheating, and God knows we don't want to go down that rabbit hole again.

I don't think anyone is going to surpass that 97 mark. That can be taken in a couple different ways.

I only wish I had the Big Blackboard to write them on.

My first and LAST graph, thank you very much.

 

I forgot to mention. I was going to draw a line to show how the graph progressed but it was so convoluted if you stared at it long enough it could give you a migraine and we have enough headaches as it is.

 

It appears the answer is "NO"

 

Brad, a thought just crossed my mind. Maybe you could rejuvenate the Brass Banana award and give it to the statistician of the year. I am sure that Flyersarebest would be the winner hands down as his graph was much neater and informative than the ones the guy who used to shoot with Ben would splatter on here before he passed on. Maybe you can ponder on this?

Dave Berlet

 

Not that I’m ungrateful for even being mentioned for an award but really?

I don’t even like the sound of that one.

I’ve been told more than a few times that I must have some brass “balls” to say and do some of the things I’ve said and done but receiving a brass banana? I will humbly have to say, NFNW.

Unless of course it has $20.00 attached to it.

You know, $20 is $20

 

How long has it been since we had a discussion like this on here? Roger C.

 

Our deceased charts and graphmaster would be proud of your extensive work. You've now become an adequate replacement.

 

Well bless your heart. I know that's a swipe but it's Christmas and I'm not going to punish you for it.

I think all the posts that hammered you like a slow straight away from station 3 is enough. Before you say anything dawg, remember, I'm not as nice as Roger.

I'm like Dalton in the movie Roadhouse. "Be nice,,,,,,until it's time to NOT be nice"

Brad once said that winston was the biggest ass to come down the pike. If you think I'm his replacement I would say that is impossible because we already have someone on here that filled that position.

Think about it for a few minutes, you'll figure out who I mean.

Mirror, mirror, on the wall

 

I'm about as afraid of you as I'd be afraid of all those SW shooters who mastered 1-hole targets on their quest to complete their Grand Slams. On second thought maybe those 44 shooters breaking 200 straights on Roger's 3-hole targets were on to something and those 1-hole target shooters were far better than he gives them credit for. I'm sure you'll search the archives for one of the Graphmasters threads and soon claim his extensive theoretical knowledge as your own.

 

I think this is enough.

We have established facts.

Let's move on

 

Dawg, it has nothing to do with "being afraid" of anyone. I think all the years of not shooting as well as your All-American son or your wife has left you with some sort of complex. I can only imagine what it was like for you. Watching them get all the praise and glory while you bragged about them as if you had anything to do with their talent. Sure, you paid for it but it had to hurt knowing you could never reach that level.

If just once you could have had your picture in Trap&Field for win at the Grand or had a winning score at a pigeon shoot. Maybe that would have soothed your damaged ego. As I said earlier in this thread. Not all of us can be in the parade, some of you have to sit on the curb and clap as it goes by.

I remember that picture we used to have on this site. The one where Brad was talking to one of the truly Big Dogs and a rep from a large company. If memory serves you were not in that discussion but sitting off to one side but grinning like a opossum. Again, I can only imagine what sitting on the sidelines was like for you and I don't have a degree in Psychiatry but from most of your posts on this site I can say, you are one screwed up individual.
The problem people like Roger have is they don't know you suffer from that complex.


Now that the niceties are over let's get to the rat killin'. YOU should do a little research in the archives of this site. The thread was about clubs letting people use credit cards and when everyone didn't didn't agree with you it went, as your threads usually do, sideways.

Remember that one? It started out as a thread where you thought all the clubs should let people use credit cards and then you went off the rails and took a swipe at me and my 25 Straight Flyers pin.

Go back and read it. You don't even have to read the entire thing. Just the part where you had to apologize for your big mouth getting you in a jackpot.

"Alright, alright, I'm truly sorry for even doubting you killed a 25 straight decades ago"

And true to form, even your apology was lame. But I didn't expect anything more.

Now, if you think I'm going to help you stretch this thread out you are 100% wrong. We both know I'm right and your complex is out in the open for all to see so I've done my part for the site. If everyone would just ignore you when you post something we might have an intelligent conversation about whatever the title of the thread might be.

Flyersarebest
Moderator (the nice one)

 

Flyersarebest, I had Dawg figured out quite a while back. I was just to much of a gentleman, to put it to him. (LOL) I hope you did not deflate his ego to much.
What do you think Dawg? Was the summation of you correct? Roger C.
P.S. I'm voting for a YES.
Those 44 200 straights came from shooters all over the country. and Canada, It was at the Spring Grand.

 

Flyers, back many years ago when the Brass Banana was awarded for some kind of a screw up I was one of the first winners. It was just one of the many silly things we did to have fun and poke fun at our trapshooting friends. All we have to do is re program it and award it for something good and keep that ole nanner in play. So in my opinion if you are the first winner in the new catagory you should accept it proudly. Maybe with some research and diligent work we can have as many categories and divisions as the ATA? Just my opinion.

Dave Berlet

 

So nice of you to belittle my many accomplishments after having continued participation in Trapshooting since 1963. My family excelled (including my wife and her four PA State championships including one State Team Captain) because of raw talent and superb coaching. Thankfully, some people have families they're willing to invest in time, travel and finances in order for them to succeed-others not so much. Please tell all of us how many times you've achieved those coveted 98+ Singles averages! Heh, I did kill a 23 or 24 on live birds at the old Powderbourne Gun Club many years ago but since it was on Summer birds I don't feel the need to brag about it.
It's obvious you know little about the pain I was I was feeling when I appeared in that picture with Brad and Dan. Several cortisone shots later and I'm hoping it won't return.
Back in my youth in 1968 I got into a shootoff for 10th place in a local 850 shooter league with the late Don Haldeman and won. FYI, he's the guy who won the gold medal in the 1972 Olympics for the USA. Much better than some obscure finish in Vandalia centuries ago, If you want some real competition please join us some Sunday. We've got several ATA All-Americans competing. and as one ATA HOF member says it's the toughest league he's ever competed in.

Only a fool wouldn't encourage accepting CC's at any Trapshoot. Most of today's kids seldom carry cash and if the ATA's serious about encouraging the youth movement they'd join this century. Unfortunately, ATA management is full of a bunch of old mammoths unwilling to accept change. Amazingly, the Sporting Clays courses around here welcome CC's.

 

Well Dave, since you put it that way. I would be out of line in NOT accepting for doing something good.

Maybe a new thread showing the things we did to be eligible for the old Brass Banana award? Our screw ups. That would be fun during the winter months.

 

How about the,
American Trapshooter.com Brad Dysinger, "Order of The Brass Banana" award as a title?

I'll bet I can find a suitable medallion and a piece of ribbon. We could mail it to the winner.

 

Dave, Please do not mention the ATA and the brass banana in the same post. They will probably want to place AA points on it. Roger C.

 

No, But I will refer you to the year 1976 when my 92.0% ATA Handicap average was 3rd in PA and 33rd. in the USA behind Frank Little and Charlie Sheckler and with an 1100 no less. Maybe Roger knows what hole the targets were in. Not only that, I still can shoot a little nearly winning the coveted High Gun in our now 400+ member league in 2018 almost defeating a recent ATA HOF member after we tied. I didn't run away from the game and blame it on 3-hole targets when I stunk-unlike others. It's called longevity.

 

Well if you really want to know it was back in prehistoric times at the Mich. State shoot before there was a failure to fire rule and I was shooting a Rem 870 competition and on the first target I didn't close the gun and hence a lost target. My program total that day was 199X200 and I still had a shell left. The big problem was that I was squadded with Brad that day and I still get reminded of that screw up every once of a while. There now I have been to confession. Since it is winter I will say that incident is much funnier to me now than it was then. LOL. Actually pretty stupid wasn't it?

Dave Berlet

 

I’m going to start a new thread so we can all post our most memorable “ Oh Man” moments but I gotta say Dave, that one is a classic.
Thank you for sharing with the group. LOL

 

No fear I have found the Brass Banana (Joe Powell award back then) in the curio cabinet and will get Ann to help me post a couple of pictures of it, if not tonight tomorrow.

As Dave knows I was the only vote in that counting when the brass banana was awarded to a deserving shooter. It will be the same again.

Brad (the head brass banana.)

 

Dawg, Nice jacket. Do you know what it should really say. it should read (first place LOSER) You are bragging about some wins at podunk shoots. When they put the state hall of fame up next to your name, then let us know. You probably attained that 16 yd. average on #1 hole targets , when the scores did not have to be verified. Did you get a pin also for that 23 flyers you claim to have killed? You are what real shooters call a whanta B shooter. Probably the only thing standing in your way from being a great shooter was your lack of talent. Now you have a very nice day. Roger C.

 

"Back in my youth in 1968 I got into a shootoff for 10th place in a local 850 shooter league with the late Don Haldeman and won. FYI, he's the guy who won the gold medal in the 1972 Olympics for the USA. Much better than some obscure finish in Vandalia centuries ago"

Congratulations on winning 10th place in an 850 entry league event and beating a future Olympic champion on top of that. The best I could do was not as far back as your accomplishment. 1977 was my second year of registered and my first trip to the Grand in Vandalia. I was only on the 24.5 so that probably made it easier and I'll bet there was a lot more pressure on you since you had to compete against all those other 849 shooters while the event I shot was only 3,259.

I think they called it the Preliminary Handicap back then and if in your mind that is some "obscure" event you should look up the definition. I didn't know they awarded those Silverware sets for "obscure" events. Odd that you imply something I did as centuries ago and yet your "big win" was older than mine.

There was one 98 that day and six 97's. Now I don't know if there were any past or future Olympic champions entered in the event, but I'm pretty sure none of the other five in our shoot off IN FRONT OF THE GRANDSTANDS AT VANDALIA were, so you got me there. Of course on that day I guess you could say I beat the other 3,256 shooters when I missed 2 and the second place winner missed one.

And dawg, when we walked out to the shoot off traps I didn't see you standing there but I hope you shot and were in the grandstands that day because if you were, I beat you too. And on THAT day, every other top shooter and Big Dog you knew or heard of.

Yeah, I know, I'll save you the trouble of writing it. "Even a blind squirrel". The thing is, some squirrels must go blind more than once because the next year in Saturdays doubles I broke a 98,and lumped you up again.

And if you made the trip to the Tri State that same year, by best friend and fellow site member Shamus and I tied for high with 98's in the doubles and you ain't him. So, oops, I thumped you again. I liked how you tried to say that since you killed those 23 or 24 pigeons was in the summer and therefore they were easier. If they were so easy, why didn't you EVER kill all 25?

We went over this before and you had to apologize so don't start down that path, you'll just have to do it again and I know that must have hurt like hell.

That "obscure" event 3rd place finish got me the MONEY, Silverware, and this. Picture of the 2nd, 3rd (me) and 4th place winners bottom right picture. As per the site rules I didn't show my private info. I'm the good looking guy in the middle.

But hey, your 10th place in a "league" is something you should be proud of. Which issue of Trap & Field magazine has the article and the picture?

Roger was right

 

I do believe I've seen the pic of the 3rd guy on the cover of GQ magazine?

 

Don't know much about flyers I see. They only give out that award for 25 straights. Of course, I'd never brag about any success on live birds with only summer down for feathers. BTW, they're far more difficult than any 3-hole 16 yd target. You'd better inform the PSSA their 1-hole targets you claim I shot were illegal. Well, I do remember missing the 100th target for a straight there 3x that year. Getting into the PSSA HOF is quite an accomplishment-much greater than some podunk state out West with far fewer shooters, Alright, I was beaten out by a recent ATA HOF inductee for the #1 spot but I was forced to send my gun down to the Silver Dollar and compete not very well with my backup gun I never shot before. Just keep up that 60 plus average and in a few more years I might join you in your world of has beens!

 

Great picture, great win but too bad you disappeared all those years ago. Whatsamatter, did the targets get too easy or did a few more yards of real estate prove too difficult? Those of us who persevered and never quit worked through all the crap this game threw at us and are still shooting. Well, I did accidently break two 96's in Doubles in my entire ATA career but the dreaded flinch on the 2nd shot makes me look real foolish shooting them anymore.

 

Dawg, You have more excuses the a $2.00 whore in confession. You were never more than an under average shooter at best. You tried to put your self in a class with Frank Little when no one ever heard of you. I have over 150 trophies 5 from the Grand, many from satalite grands, 15 different state shoots, 3 different zones, and from the US open. I never went to PA. when I lived there they had the same dates as Ohio for their state shoot. You still brag about a handicap average of 92% in 1976 you were probably on the 20 yrd. line. You will not be in the world of has beens, you are destined to be in the world of never wasers. Roger C.

 

Just for you is a photo of the day I killed that score at the old Powderbourne Gun Club many years ago. Notice the shorts and beautiful Summer weather. Heck, anyone could kill birds on a day like that-pin feathers and all- maybe even Roger. Unfortunately, I don't remember if it was a 23 or 24/25. Now, a 25 straight on birds in the wind on a January day would be something to brag about.

 

Roger, I was never a trinket shooter. When the money left ATA shooting I found little reason to pay exorbitant prices to compete for a flashlight, pewter plate or belt buckle trophy-that's for kids. Besides, being classified either AAA or AA and obviously not competitive with professional trapshooters why bother. Heh, I know a few guys and girls who thrive on collecting class C and D trinkets and have rooms full of 'em. Any ATA trinket trophies I won are very likely deposited in my favorite trash cans.

 

Flyerarebest nailed your ass to the wall, with his description of you as a person. Even if you were a winner, you could never be a champion, you do not fit the bill Roger C.

 

Yesterday it was some “obscure” win and today, when you see the picture, it’s a great win. LOL

And you can’t remember if you killed a 23, 24, or a 25?
Dawg, you just pegged the BS meter. I guarantee that if you EVER killed 25 you would remember every detail of the day you did it.

That looks like a snapshot taken by one of your pals.

I would post the half page picture the professional photographer from the Hazelton-Standard Speaker newspaper used of five of us at Hegins in 1995 but it wouldn’t be fair to the other 4 guys. When he asked me how I was shooting and I told him I was straight half way through he wanted to take my picture and name for the paper. I told him only if he took it of all 5 of us and he agreed.

Of course those were September birds and according to you they were “easy”. Funny, Hegins is out east and yet I never saw your name anywhere near the top of the leader board. And I doubt very much if you would tell the guy that killed all 20 to win any of those Labor Day shoots that his birds were “easy”.

Now for the yardage increase scaring me?
Not one bit. That 97 got me 2 yards to the 26.5 and I got the last half to get punched less than a month later. Started in 1976, at the fence in 1977. I didn’t carry any kind of high average from back there but did have a few 98’s to win some money along the way and when fellow member Shamus and I showed up people didn’t ask, who’s that? Mainly because he was one of the best in the state and they knew we ran together. LOL But I wasn't that bad from back there.

But your calling wasn’t handicap or pigeons was it? It was singles where you really shined. That 98.2 on 1500 targets was the pinnacle right? How did you manage that? Three or four 200 bird events and the rest on nice warm days where you shot at a hundred? Or maybe a 500 marathon at the local club where you were comfortable? Just how in the hell can you go all year and shoot only 1500 targets? Yeah, I know, you told us mutiple times that you sacrificed your chance at glory because you had to let the better shooters in your family shoot.

Whatever,

If you wanted to manage your targets and shoot only on nice days and nice fields that’s your business. Great shooting there dawg. Way to “persevere”.

Remember when we had the east and west zone shoots here in Pa? Then at the state shoot if you were one of the top scores in your zone ( I think they used 8-10 scores) they would post your 16 score on the state 200 and declare the winning team based on which side broke the most targets?

I truly hope you were on the eastern team in1978. Because I would have tuned you up again when they awarded us, the guys from the western zone, the Zone Team Champions pin.

Like I said dawg, we all can’t be in the parade. Someone has to sit on the curb and clap

 

Now Flyers, I never claimed to have killed 25 straight live birds-ever. I remember quite well killing a 23 once at Pikeville including missing the last bird (a big black and white chicken out of a center box) from a massive choke. I do remember my knees shaking, Oh well, that cost me a few options.
That said, my older son snagged an interview and some photos in the USA Today newspaper at the Hegins shoot so many years ago. I don't remember him shooting so well but the USA Today has a much wider circulation than a few thousand Trap and Field magazines.
Coming from PA Dutch country you'd know we take great pride in our Singles shooting capabilities-it's a Dutch thing. Handicap and Doubles were always something put on the back burner. Anyway, any respectable shooter knows Handicap up to the 26 yd. line is simply "long singles"-nothing to brag about.

 

This thread has turned in a pissing contest between two little boys. Just the way I see it.

Ron Burdick

 

Dawg, You were never a money shooter, money shooters shoot handicap. Trinkets were the top prizes in the 16's. Money shooters shot for new cars.
A 26 yd. shooter is much better than any 16 yd. shooter with a 98 average. The long singles were to much for you to handle.

 

Ron, It is between a dog and a puppy. Roger C.

 

Rog I can make more money breaking 50 straights in local shoots than breaking a decent Handicap score. You're well aware the money left the Handicap events and the payoffs are so watered down because of those darn 2-hole targets. Why waste expensive entry fees hoping your score wins a glass bowl or belt buckle. It's called ROI!

 

Well Ron that old saying, "a pissing contest" always referred to a "bragging" contest. Anytime anyone, here and other sites, posts what they have accomplished someone always claims it is a "pissing contest". That's OK since we are an open site and anyone can post their opinion. But,

It ain't bragging IF YOU DID IT. Just a fact.

 

This brings back memories of the grudge match.

 

I don't usually talk about my accomplishments, but when a no body makes comments about how I now shoot now. After two strokes and being 85 years old ,it irritates me a little. When I know he wasn't good enough to carry my shooting bag in his prime.
I know what money shooting used to be. I shot for new cars, (never) won one. I shot in calcuttas that had over $50,000 up for grabs did a lot better in those. I know what real money shooting is. Ron, You called us little boys. Correction/// One real man and a life long wanta "B"called dawg. Roger C.

 

Just a bunch of shooters sitting around talking about what this one or that one did.

I know it reminds me of all the shoots in all the different places after the smoke cleared and we sat around to have a beer and rip on each other.

Kinda reminds you of the Golden Years at the beer tent, doesn't it?

 

Flyer I think you hit on the nose, it does have that beer tent feel to it. If it wasn't so tedious I 'd drink about a dozen Hudies and reread the whole 340 plus posts.

 

Roger, congratulations on being older than dirt. Just be careful-you know-three strikes and you're out.

 

Note: The three shooters I named in this post are dead so they won't care.

The group on here looks like a Girl Scout troop compared to the gang I ran with. If you verbally fell down around those guys they would bury you. It was like a bunch of sharks just waiting for the first drop of blood.

Somone that had a bad day would make a remark about the targets, or the pullers/scorers the weather, or the place itself and you could see the rest of them smiling at each other. You knew that the guy that made the gripe was in for it.

Every year they had a dining fly type tent set up on the bend behind the practice traps at Elysburg and would hang out there before they shot and then drink beer there after they finished. We always said it was like the beer tent at the Grand. Just the miniature PA version.

The year we had to shoot those "woody brown" targets at the PA state a lot of people were upset. At least the 30 or so from my home club and a couple of clubs close to us. My shooting buddy Shamus and I talked them into going into town and buying a stencil kit, orange paint, and brushes. It didn't take that much to get them going.
When they came back we took a few of the dark Blue T shirts they sold promoting the shoot, the ones that had PA State Shoot and the year inside a Keystone, and under that logo we stenciled the word, SUCKS

Funny thing was, when they asked why Shamus and I weren't wearing one we told them,
Are you nuts? We're not wearing that around the grounds.

What we DID do was go to the main building and told the guy behind the counter we wanted to talk to for Betty Ann Foxworthy. She came out of an office smiling and asked how she could help.

We want to buy a full page of Trap & Field.

Oh, really? Well what do you want to advertise?

We don't want to sell anything. We just want to buy the full page and have,
THE PA STATE SHOOT SUCKS, printed on it.

She blinked a few times, thinking we were kidding, but when she realized we weren't she stopped smiling and said in a sarcastic way.

Well, that would cost you $750.00

I guess she thought we were just 2 stumblebums and not serious. We told her,

No problem, there are about 25 people down behind the practice traps that will pony up ten dollars each and me and this guy will cover the rest.
Unless you want a check. Then me or him can write that now and collect from them later. Whichever you prefer. Heck, when people start to see our T shirts we could get enough to buy the back cover.

She turned, walked back into the office she came from, closed the door and that was that. Guess they didn't need the $750.00
Then the one of the good ole' boys, Gene Anastasio, came up to us and said

I think you should leave the building now.

He was standing off to the side when we tried to help Trap & Field by buying space.

Sure Gene, no problem,
Oh, by the way, are you, Andy Long, McKIssick, and whoever else that is on your squad still changing targets every time you step up to a trap? Nice to have them the way you like them huh?

He followed her into that office without answering us. Go figure

Yep, this bunch on here is like listening to a a group singing Kum ba ya compared to the crew I shot with and against. LOL

 

Flyers,
You are right on with everything you put into the last thread. Woody Brown target’s weren’t very good. Gene Anastasia was-a puppet for Ted McHugh. There are a few other names from that time period that could be brought to light but we aren’t supposed to talk bad about the dead.

Ron Burdick

 

Our PA delegate was walking past the tent and saw them wearing the T shirts
He stopped, shook his head and said with a chuckle,

You know, it’s not very nice to say that about our state shoot.

As he started to walk away he stopped, turned around grinning and replied

It’s the Gods truth, that’s for sure, but you still shouldn’t be saying it out loud.

 

Gosh, that was a long time ago. Thanks for refreshing my memory. They may all be dead but as they say "the players change but the game stays the same". I do remember visiting Woody's target making factory. FYI, we just lost the last of the Mohicans this week.

 

Elwood R. Brown (Past ATA President, Past Pennsylvania State Sportsmen's Assoc. President & 32nd Degree Mason) owned and operated the Midgard Inc., a precision mold plastics operation. He established the Great Eastern Target Co. around 1980.

At 1974 PA Grand Shoot.

​

Woody in 1976 checking White Flyers.

​

Ad from 1984.

​

Mr. Brown, 69 yrs. old, passed in May 1994, shortly after suffering a heart attack while working at the PSSA Homegrounds.

 

Just wondering if the Great Eastern Target is still in business?

Dave Berlet

 

nOT WHEN IT COMES TO LUCKY KNIGHTINGALE ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE, I SEEN IT DONE

GB................................ DLS

 

Loooong gone!

 

Yeah, they didn't call him Lucky for nothing. His record for escaping the impossible was legend.

 

Mr. Berlet,

According to reports I've read, the target company was in business about 3 years before it ever filed for incorporation on October 20, 1983.

In early 1988, Mr. Brown sold the company to James Swank and Dan Zenzel who moved the business to Danville, PA. The target business was operated at 411 Railroad St., out of a vacant State Transportation Department building.

Andy,

Do you know the approximate year production was ceased for these targets? I've never found any information that Mr. Zenzel & Mr. Swank got the business up and running in 1988, though they seemed to obtain most if not all permits for start-up.

Also, do you know anyone who might have a stash of Great Easter targets? I'd like to purchase one for my collection.

 

I'm going to officially declare this thread dead. RIP.

 

Only if you declare it #1 in 2021.

 

Call It!
6:11 PM 12/27/21

 

Only dead if Dawg tells us he is sorry for his actions. Roger C.

 

Nope, ain't going there.

Dead as a doornail
Pushing up Daisies
Six feet under
Deceased
Extinct
Dead as a Herring
Expired
Dead as a Dodo
Under the Sod
Stone Dead
Stiff
Dead and Burried

 

Awe, c'mon guys. I was hoping to see 5 pages before the new year

 

You forgot beat a dead horse. Tom in Pa I don't think we have the time. But "I agree"

 

If I apologize to Roger C can we make it to 5 pages? Never mind, I changed my mind.

 

Dawg, Say your sorry with conviction, and I will accept it. L.O.L. Roger C.

 

If it will help, I will say I am sorry.

I am sorry I ever started reading this worthless thread!

 

Your choice. You didn't have to. Roger C.

 

IMHO, threads like this, hurt this website. Please do your name calling and chest pounding using private messages. A little more kindness on this website would be welcomed by me and I suspect others.

 

Only 31 more posts to page 5

 

Full steam ahead. I wonder why if you dislike this thread and think it hurts this web site so much you would look at it, let alone comment on it. A closet page 5 person I suspect.

Don't go woke, if you ain't sorry don't pretend.

 

Dobyns, there are other websites, maybe they will cater to your reading needs!

 

This site is not frequented by overly sensitive posters. We're a bunch of guys and gals who love to argue over little things like how many eels in a fish tank. I ran with a bunch of old WWII vets who'd throw punches at their brother in a bar, hug him and buy him a drink five minutes later-that's us. Nonetheless, some sites are uncomfortable with our approach and enjoy banning everyone with whom they disagree-not us.

 

My contribution to page five...although I AM a bit embarrassed to be on this thread!!!!!
Off to get more popcorn.

 

Even though I never watched football, even way back when the "stillers" were winning their 4 superbowls, I know enough about the league to say that this site is like
the old Oakland Raiders teams of the 70's We take everyone that no one else wants.

We should probably have a picture of the Statue of Liberty as our banner

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"

I don't think we have too many "poor" guys here and the only place we might have "huddled" was at the beer tent or some donut stand but you get the drift.

If anyone has ever had members or worse yet moderators on another site or sites tell them to either shut up or get tossed, well

Welcome Home Son

 

The top two posters on this thread WERE being kind.

 

So if I post again just to get the post count up, do I get banned from the for sale section?
Maybe if we time it right, Oleolliedawg can make his best attempt at an apology for post #400...or not. We won't know until we get there.

 

Are all these extra post with the push to page 5 be considered cheating like having 2 hole targets when 3 hole were mandated being we are no longer on topic.

 

Rn3 I've long since given up the thought of this being on topic but thanks for the attempt. I'll summarize my first post. ATA in 1993, lots of shooters, lots of ATA clubs, lots of ATA shoots to choose from, less than 100 All Americans.

ATA in 2022, lot less shooters, lot less clubs, lot fewer shoots to choose from, many, many more All Americans, about three times more.

ATA in 1993 harder targets, a historic past, a GRAND Grand at Vandalia, a HOF that was growing and viable.

ATA in 2022 skeet quality targets, past 20 years of turmoil and failure, Sparta (need to say no more), HOF owned by the State of Illinois.

Yea that pretty much is the note book take on my first post.

 

Brad, Very good description of the failure of the present ATA leadership for the last 20 some years. Roger C.

 

20 for page 5 need to pick up the pace or it's going to fail.

 

So, back to the original thread... If I can show my ignorance, how is it decided how many positions there will be on the teams and how many teams there will be. What exactly is the purpose of the second team. It's not like they shoot together and you need a backup in case folks on the first team get ill and can't shoot.

This should probably be a separate post, but how the heck does someone figure out how the points system even works for the team? It's like you need to be in the "circle of trust" to know what shoots are worth attending and which are not. I doubt this will add to the post count much since non one seems to really understand the system.

 

Tom, there you go everything you ever wanted to about All-American point system and probably some you didn't.

 

Tom in Pa now honestly tell me you are not sorry you asked. Thanks Rn3

 

Glad I could be of some help

 

I believe what this means is that many-many shooters with average ability and the time and the financial funds to attend the Prelim& Grand American most of the Satellite Grands- several State Shoots and their Zone Shoot would probably be (all Americans). Not just the truly elite shooters. Over the years a large drop in total number of shooters and a huge increase in the number of all Americans. Every one needs a ribbon!!! Just my opinion.

Dave Berlet

 

Even if we had a ''Reader's Digest'' condensed version of AA team requirements. I still would not understand it.

 

I'll let the link to their site slide, LOL

 

Missed that.

 

Back in 1993 the All American team seemed to be a little less complicated if I remember correctly. The first All American team I was on in 1977 (for the 1976 shooting year) was picked by 3 or 4 people. I think Dave Bopp, Betty Ann Foxworthy, and maybe Gene Hill from Sports Afield.

The original teams were picked by Jimmy Robinson who was with Sports Afield. Anyone interested in Trap Shooting history and lore owes it to themselves to read Jimmy's books. He has several and I think I have every one of the ones he published.

By the time the ATA came up with the must apply points system to be on the AA teams they didn't matter to me. Lucky one time asked me why I didn't send in my "application" because he said I had the 2nd or 3rd, can't remember just which, most points. I told him if the ATA knew that why should I have to apply.

 

Just like the Reese's commercial...."not sorry"
RN3, thanks for posting all of that. I read it all...again. Probably the 4th or 5th time I've read it. Each time I start to understand just a bit more than the time before. There are way too many "if/then" scenarios in there. My head is spinning by the time I'm done reading it. Actually a readers digest version would really help a lot. Even just a list of the qualifying shoots, a list of the base points, a list of the competition factor by attendees, a list of shoots that have dedicated competition factors. A list of shoots from the last year or two with their respective competition factors would be very helpful as well. Wow, even the readers digest version sounds complicated!

I had originally asked why the second teams. I assume that is to entice more shooters to shoot the large shoots to try and make the team. It must work to some degree because my kids are after me to travel even more to some of the bigger shoots (although they'd like to make the team, I think it's more that they just love to shoot and go meet other shooters).

Does anyone know when they increased the number of shooters on the teams? Was it done all at once or did they slowly add members over the years.

 

Jr. gold and sub vet has added a substantial number. Now there are less than 50% of shooters than there were in years past and there are 3 times as many all Americans. In my opinion the ATA would be wise to try to help the smaller clubs who are basically the feeder clubs rather than focus all of their in put on the satellite grands and the bloated all American teams. I guess that the expense money for the officials is more important than trying to help get new members at the grass roots level. Just my opinion.

Dave Berlet

 

It seems the ATA is trying to follow the money. It costs a small fortune to chase points. It seems your chance of making the team goes up considerably if you shoot the Grand and satellite grands... and shoot all of the events. It adds up to a lot of targets quick. If they kept the number of shooters on the team small, only the true elite shooters could make the team. With the larger number, more of the "sub elite" shooters will partake in the chase. Not to take anything away from those shooters. They all make me look like the average Joe that I am.

I agree, they don't do a lot for the small clubs that are really struggling currently. Honestly, around here, ata shoots make up a very small portion of the clubs' revenue. Problem is, increasing that portion isn't a very easy proposition. We benefit from people that "need to get their targets in" but beyond that it takes a lot of work and ingenuity to attract more than just your local shooters.

 

Maybe they took a cue from collegiate sports. NCAA has All American 1st, 2nd, and 3rd teams

 

The NCAA having 3 all American teams is quite different when comparing them to our ATA all American teams when you figure in the number of college athletes who are eligible to the number of ATA shooters who are eligible. Just saying.

Dave Berlet

 

With the length and passion of this thread I think it is time for some "Vintage Dysinger" humor and honor to be posted......

So first story takes place at the Illinois State Shoot around 1993-94? Can't be exactly sure on that, but the shoot then was at the Mather Gun Club in Springfield. On Saturday which was the singles championship, Brad is in a fairly impressive squad save for post 5 which was occupied by a friend of mine, John Fitzgerald. John had become friends with Leo Harrison and they shot together a lot. But picture the line up, Post 1 thru 4 of: Doc William Godschalk, Brad, Leo, Louie Morgan, and John on 5. First field Doc calls for a view target, no objections and he proceeds, Pull smoke, pull smoke, pull smoke, Pull......lost......A big hesitation and then John shoots Pull...dead. as they finish the 5 targets and the scorekeeper calls out the scores: 5-5-5-4-5 as they are changing posts Louie says: "Boys looks like going to be a long day for Louie...." So they finish out the first 100 and the scores are 100-100-100-99-92. As the day progresses the heat and humidity is stifling. Not a breath of air moving anywhere.. The squad takes the line and the show is on. First 4 guys are hanging soot balls in the air where targets used to be. John is John.....As they go along the A team is just grinding targets into powder. By trap 3 the heat is getting to John. Sweat running down his face soaking his T shirt and he gets a chalky color and as he is moving along he kind of stumbles a bit. Next post they finish and as they are moving, John looked like Chuck Berry playing the guitar and doing the Duck walk getting lower and lower to the ground. Right before he crashes, Leo's big hand comes out of no where and grabs his shoulder sitting him down. Doc comes over and says they need to get John to a bench which they do next to a family sitting with one of those huge coolers full of ice and water and a few bottles of drinks. Doc never says a word just grabs the cooler and sloshed the entire contents all over the front of John to cool him down. He was obviously close to a heat stroke. Whatever time later John is feeling better and can continue so out they go and the finish of the event went: 200-200-200-199-184. The 4 All Americans put on quite a show. As they walk off the field shaking hands a sizeable crowd has gathered to watch, and one person says to Louie: "Was it warm out there?" Louie never missed a beat: "It's so hot out I saw two beagles pouring ice water on a rabbit trying to get it to run......." Brad standing nearby has a guy come up and say: "Well Brad how was it...." Brad: "Not too bad once we got the rythym, We would shoot 5 and drag John, Shoot 5 and drag John......" The crowd exploded in laughs.

Ok, same shoot different day..Sunday Handicap Championship,, Sqaud is out there and it is not quite as warm as day before but warm. However there was a fairly good wind blowing when they took the line. Saving the shot or trap by trap account but down 2 targets going into the last trap and clearly leading the field with a possible 98, Brad gets a hard right that hits the wind and jumps as he is shooting. There was a significant puff of dust and everyone on the squad is staring intently at the target sail away and the scorekeeper is silent. Hearing nothing Brad asked the scorekeeper: how did you score that last target?" "Dead target sir.......I thought I saw a piece." Brad asked Leo and Doc and both said they saw a lot of dust and would not rule out a piece.... Louie was on the best angle to see and when asked he said: "I can't say for sure Brad that I did but there could have been...." The score keeper said: "dead Target........" Brad paused and walked over with the rest of the squad and discussed it again and then said: "Please score that target as lost......" He didn't have to do that. The scorekeeper was relatively certain she "thought" there was a piece, but Brad insisted. He finished with a 97 for the event and that one target knocked him out of a tie for first place in a Championship event. To me that is the epitome of honor and integrity. It wasn't a small club shoot or a regular ATA event, it was a state championship where 1 target would have made all the difference in the world. Brad chose the high road and I have never forgotten that. So when someone here "suggests" some form of less than honorable intent and behavior it raises my hackles. You were always one of the best on the line Brad, but you were a champion in life as well as far as I am concerned.

 

Great story and great job of story telling. It's almost like I was there. Hats off to Brad, a true gentleman. Now I think it's time to head outside to cool down (and get some work done)

 

Thanks for the stories Bobby, you almost choked me up a little. We had great times at those Matherland State Shoots and it always seemed to be really hot, but at least the humidity was high.

I'd say that what I did with that lost target wasn't anything special because back then the vast majority of All Americans and top shooters did the same. We didn't want to beat someone by cheating and we didn't want to get beat by a cheater.

Just think that all these years later you still remember that, I can't but I do remember John's problems with the heat.

Looking back on those days now I'd say we had honor, but Tom really, a Gentleman, that just might be a bit far to take it but thanks.

 

Brad, Maybe just maybe the fact that you say it was nothing special,makes it even more special. There was no hesitation in your decision, no second thought, you immediately knew it was the right thing to do. I think you are correct that many All Americans know the value of honor and integrity and would do the same. And that I remember it shows the impact it can and does have on those who are witness. It was truly inspiring and gave me an immense respect for you.

And the comedy surrounding John and some other things Louie said. Like when the 2 guys came up to him and invited him to the seafood smorgasbord. He scratched his head and said: “I only eat 2 kinds of seafood, crappie and bluegill….” Thanks then and now Brad for the lesson in honor.

 

This is post #400,

the closest I ever came to winning the High All Around