Martin Money where is it?

I haven’t heard much about the Martin’s lately. Are they still in the ATA support program?

 

I'm "Uncle Phil" used to support some shoots in Fl-- was as effective as pissing into the wind to support the sport

 

Who is Uncle Phil?

 

The Martins, Harts, and others have spent and invested a lot of money in promoting the sport of Trap Shooting, there comes a point in time you got to let go and walk away once you figure out your being used ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

They have been donating lots of dollars in Tucson.
THANKS SO MUCH!

 

Not to forget Bill Hunter who supported the ATA for years.

 

I used to sponsor special Handicap events @ Robinson ranch--never got much of a turn out--

 

635 G (Uncle Phil) put up over $5,000.00 in prize monies each year to help this small club in Florida out. They tried all sorts of ways to give the money to the shooters, and unfortunately it never got much of a crowd.

They tried ATA shoots, Non ATA shoots, all handicap, spread the money out, nothing seemed to work for them.

Thanks for trying "Uncle Phil".

 

Money thrown at a shoot ain't going to help today as that time has passed. The ATA EC of Winston's time (25 years ago) decided that easy targets were what was needed to make trap shooting go in a FANTASTIC DIRECTION. Him and his friends hated money shooters and in their woke way purged them from trap shooting, by making the targets easy the scores higher in handicaps, 25's and 50 straights became worth less and less. A new shooter who could pay for his week at the grand with a 50 straight in any of the handicaps couldn't anymore. The Martins of the ATA wanted banks, million dollar camping spots, pre squading on their preferred traps, hell in the late 90's it even got so bad that you got to shoot all 200 targets on 1 trap.

When you gave these advantages to the money shooters that were shooting when I was active we were going to kick your ass. All those ideas presented to the ATA membership to help the average shooter were WRONG and Winston and his buddies didn't care to listen to any one but their million dollar buddies.

These All American want to be, millionaires, couldn't compete against true money shooters because they weren't good enough shots, so they changed the rules. They couldn't buy a gun expensive enough, not like auto racing where Winston came from where he could buy a car to win, he and his friends couldn't buy shooting talent no matter how much money they had, the only way was to drive the money shooter/average guy out of the ATA and make it a joke.

Martin bought his way into the HOF by trying to prop up Sparta only, he did no good for trap shooting in general. I saw people like him around the sport of target shooting for many years, I don't respect any of them. Save your money ATA Trap Shooting is dead.

 

Initially, I think the Martins had a sincere interest in benefitting (promoting ) the sport, which didn't seem to get the renewed interest they had expected or anticipated ... The Martins, Harts, Hunters and a host of others tried to revitalize and re energize the sport while the ATA continued on a path of destruction and did little if anything to promote the sport of trap shooting ... I do not think any of those mentioned would of intentionally done anything to decay the sport as they invested a lot of Dollars that a lot of people benefitted by ... The ATA found the deep pockets they had hoped for and used it to the fullest extent until the investors backed off and said enough is enough ... Some people are generous to a fault, others get on the EC,ED and or get to be one of the Good "ol Boys on the BOD so they can take advantage rather than do any good ... ( Just my take on it ) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The Martins pumped tons or money into the sport but, there were conditions to winning most of it. But ,anyone giving added money has a right to say how it is divided . I do appreciate their donations but , not to the point I think they should be an influence in the rule making business. Though I appreciate they generosity, I think them being put in the HOF was a bridge too far IMO. I know they wanted the NEW shell rule for handicap events at the Grand and swayed influence in the passing of the new shell rule. For a few years from 2006 to the time it stopped you could use reloads at all Grand events . I always said being able to shoot reloads at 16s and doubles but ,not in CAPS was a bunch of nonsense. When people try and use the justification of MONEY for the rule I tell them the MONEY is GONE now ! This year with the shell shortage I thought the new shell rule might be relaxed but I think the EC is still HOPING the Martins will drop more money into it and are sticking with it. . To their defense and credit I think the Martins have given MORE than ENOUGH and nobody could blame them if they never gave any more. The money in the sport is pretty much Gone now, and it has has been for awhile. There used to be tons of added money but thee is Hardly any ADDED money in the sport now. . When I stated in 1973 you could shoot a good score at the Grand and take home a load of cash. NOT ANYMORE . Heck for several years the GAH winner got a new car or truck !! The few companies that still put up cash or prizes do it in Sporting Clays now .

 

I have known the Martins, Harts, and Hunter's for quite a few years, I have serious doubts any of them would of made it a stipulation to be put in the HOF because of their generous donations ... It has been said by many people, many times that they (The Martins) bought their way into the HOF but did they request it or was it an extended thanks by the ATA (HOF) , love to know if someone ( anyone ) knows for sure ... I do know if the Martins wanted to be in the HOF they could of built their own at their leisure where ever they wanted it instead of in the middle of no place Illinois ... I could understand the rule of New Shells only for the grand American handicap, to try and keep everyone honest ... Hell, I can remember all shells shot at the grand were mandatory new shells, which got relaxed because they could not draw a crowd at the WSRC and they wanted to entice people by allowing re pops (re loads) , that combined with the restrictions set forth by the State of Illinois that was eventually removed and put back into effect ... Those that gave, gave more than their fair share and personally I doubt there was any contempt on their part when they did ... It may not of done what it was intended to do but that was then, this is now ... I would find it difficult to accuse a person of something when those that do have probably never met the accused face to face ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

First off I don't know of anyone who says that the Martins demanded or even ASKED to be placed in the HOF. I certainly didn't. I do not blame them for accepting it. If I blame anybody it is the people who placed fast and loose with awarding it based only on money and that IS NOT the fault of the Martins. I imagine anybody in their shoes would do the same. What I will say is that just because they gave a lot of money , that does not "qualify" them for the HOF. The HOF should be for shooting accomplishment not being generous and while I appreciate their generosity it is not a HOF qualifier. Let me ask you this . Suppose I become a scratch golfer. Not a GREAT golfer just one that wins a few matches once in awhile at a few clubs. Now suppose I had millions in cash. If I donated a bunch of that money to the PGA tour , would I deserve to be placed in the Golf HOF beside guys like Palmer or Nickalus ??? I think I already know your answer in that case . And just HOW is the New Shell rule keeping everybody HONEST when it is ONLY in Handicap ??!! Are you saying that people will be HONEST in Singles and Doubles shooting reloads but, those SAME people won't be Honest in Handicap unless they shoot new shells ??!! There are options on THOSE events too you know, and like I said the added money is almost ALL GONE now. To me, saying reloads are OK in Singles and doubles but somehow NOT OK in Handicap is pure NONSENSE ! Yes I fully remember the new shell buy them there rules at Vandalia when the ATA drove the purchase price of the shells down to low ball but jacked it up retail to the shooters But that was Vandalia and just like Vandalia those days are GONE and they are not coming back !

 

There are qualifications beyond life time shooting achievements that qualify people for induction to the HOF ( I know this for a fact), I have never went over them because I have never had the desire, especially out in the middle of No Place, Illinois (of all places ) ... I am not a golfer so you can talk golf all day and I would not listen or be interested in a word you have to say about it or their HOF either, probably have qualifications other than hitting a little ball all over the place also ... There are exceptions to every rule if you look for them, me personally am not interested ... I only shot handicap with the exception of if and when I attended the Grand in Vandalia, having a family to feed kept me in limited funds, except one year I hit enough of a pay back to pay for my trip, all expenses and the following year also ...

I have been told by a lot of people the club in Vernal, Utah hosts some big time games with major payouts by the Martins and Harts, supposed to be one big party and makes a lot of people happy ... Sounds like my kind of place, if I was younger I would probably be there ... The Hawley family runs the club and obviously have a good handle on what they are doing based on what people say about it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...


I think it should be all new shells because that is all I shoot any way, been that way for years ...

 

I have no beef with the Martins nor, do I begrudge anybody their money or possessions . What's their is theirs and they have every RIGHT to it. That is simply capitalism and what makes America . Only socialist liberals begrudge someone having what is theirs. Yes, there may be other factors in HOF placement BUT ,putting somebody in the Trap HOF just because they are rich and gave a bunch of MONEY is NOT one of them ! ---- I don't live out west . What Vernal does or who puts in money in it has nothing to do with the HOF . The HOF is a place to honor and remember the greats in trapshooting not, just what one club may do or not do. The requirement for new shells has not always been that way. It has gone from all new shells at the Gtand to all legal shells ( new AND reloads) then to reloaded for singles and doubles but, NEW shells in handicap. Back when the ATA had that old 3 dr. 1200 FPS rule a LOT of the heavy factory loads that were simply marked 3 dr. on the box exceeded it but, nothing was said because they were factory loaded. The ATA finally changed the rule to velocity because of that . Today the ONLY events in the ATA that require new shells are Handicap events at the Grand. That is because a handful of people want it that way and those in power that MAKE that rule are probably rich enough that they never hand loaded a shell in their life and are catering to the wishes of a handful ! The way I see it a legal shell is a legal shell period. To me saying reloads are OK in singles and Doubles but not in Handicap is just plain ignorant ! I will follow the rules that they lay down for ammo at the Grand BUT, I still have the right to voice my opinion and I will continue do so . You have a right to yours .

 

After reading these threads; who in their right mind would want to donate their money to the ATA. The shooters are like vouchers wanting the free money but in the end they bite the hand that feeds them, human nature I guess. Does anybody patronize those people's business's that donate their money? Why not up the played options fees?

Excellence is achieved from solution/focused people; evidently we don't have solution/focused people working on the problem.

 

pump gun guy,
You missed my point completely, at least we agree that you are entitled to your opinion and I am mine ... I have shot since 1975, never once was any shell I shot checked or contested, nor do I know of any other shooters that have either so surely someone is a sleep at the wheel (my opinion) ... Have a nice day ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

pump gun guy,

I took the liberty to go over to the ATA site and get the qualifications for induction to the HOF :

Qualifications
Hall of Fame nominees are selected from two groups: competitors—shooters who have made impressive records in shooting on an ATA-wide basis, and contributors—those who have contributed to the growth of trapshooting or to the betterment of the sport, also on an ATA-wide basis. Obviously, a shooter might have accomplishments in both of these areas.

Specific requirements for competitors are:

• Shooters with impressive records on an ATA-wide basis who are still living and have been in active competition for a period of 20 years or more..
• Shooters who are deceased and have honored themselves in trapshooting on an ATA-wide basis for a significant number of years.

Specific requirements for contributors are:

• Living or deceased individuals who distinguished themselves on an ATA-wide basis by their contributions to the sport of trapshooting. This category can take on and is intended to have a broad meaning. Contributors are recognized for doing great service to our sport—such as inventions to aid our sport, promoting and publicizing our sport, and/or serving trapshooters on state, zone and ATA-wide bases.

Hope this helps and explains the difference for you ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

It appears they covered their ass and all the bases in going with the above stated requirements, so basically anyone qualifies according to those and it would be justified ...

 

I've shot longer than that and YES I have seen shells challenged. All they did was INSPECT the shot and in one case WEIGH it. The velocity rule has too many variables and there is really no way to prove it. Once at the Grand a guy had his shells challenged because the boxes got wet in the back of his pick up and he simply put them in some boxes he had for his reloads. Once they found out what happened they let it go . --There are folks who poured blood ,sweat ,and tears into this sport and though they may not be great shots they are probably deserving but ,to me just dumping a ton of Cash is not worthy of HOF membership . On that we will have to respectfully disagree. Shoot well and have a nice day.

 

The Martins hadn't been shooting the 20 years when they went into the HOF, that is my beef. rules for thee and not for me (and my friends) has been the creed of the Bradford's of the ATA for too many years. It's a rule book not a book of suggestions. If they had been shooting the 20 years I would not have been upset because they do qualify by those rules, just missed a real qualifier by a few years so what the heck.

As a HOF member I'm willing to say in public what many other HOF members have told me in private and for some reason care what the few remaining trap shooters think about them. If there are no shooter's I tell them it won't matter if your picture is on a wall in some barn or not, no shooters = no history = no one caring.

I think that the Martin's money only propped up Sparta and the EC and much like a druggies family members with the best of intentions were in fact enablers. How much better it would have been if Sparta had folded after 5 years like it was going to before the Martins' money showed up.

 

I have asked repeatedly for the THOF BOD to eliminate the ATA Wide Basis portion of this so anyone Previous to the ATA organization could be submitted.

Still wonder how some of the EARLY guys who were inducted got in there.

But today when inductees get in without going through the proper procedures, I guess no rules matter.

When I summitted a person for a nomination, and put in his international Bunker shooting records also, I was told THIS isn't on the ATA wide basis.

The person I submitted told me not to bother any more because it's all politics anyway.

Guess he knew a lot more than I did.

Sad how tarnished the THOF has become.

It used to mean something, today it seems just a popularity contest.

 

Politics has ruined the HOF . For me, the final straw was when two millionaires who got put in the HOF because of simply donating a bunch of money . The HOF committee has become a bunch of groupies running a popularity contest ! It's interesting that that your nominee would not have his Bunker trap accomplishments considered when several in the past HAVE ! If you read the history of several in the HOF , you will see many given credit for their accomplishments in Bunker Trap but ,I guess the 'CLUB" makes or uses rules to suit their own agenda ! There are many deserving who have been overlooked because of political favoritism ! It isn't just the National HOF that does this now . Here in the state I live in there was a man who has been in the ATA HOF for some time ( and who EARNED IT) but ,he has been denied placement in the STATE HOF because a bunch of sour pusses at the "Big Dollar " didn't LIKE him ,and who have vowed to fight tooth and nail to prevent him from being placed in the state HOF. ! IMO it's takes a small person who allows buddy buddy politics ans personal attitude to dictate their actions. I sure miss the old days before cheap politics got involved !

 

Pump Gun Guy,

I never have been, nor will I ever probably be a resident of Ohio BUT, although I "Used" to donate items to the National Museum I now send what I can to Betty Peterson, the Curator of the Ohio Trapshooting Hall of Fame.

To me a museum should not ONLY be open for a couple of weeks during the year, but more than that so people can see the history of what Trap shooting once was.

Betty and her people do a great job out there at the Cardinal Center, and it looks like it has gotten so large they are in need of more room. That that IS going in a Fantastic Direction !

That being said, Ohio in my opinion has one of the best, if not The Best exposure for the shotgun community.

Thanks to the Ohio folks for keeping our history alive with your beautiful Museum.

 

The HOF Museum got to be obsolete (insignificant ) once the game was dumbed down, the Honor that it once was has long since faded away ... Those that were enshrined 15/ 20 years ago are the true Honorees, nothing can change that and they know who they are ... To get all lathered up about someone who made major donations to the HOF and trap shooting in general really makes little or no sense, nor does the reason they did it ( Martin, Hart , Hunter to name a few ) ... It is obvious people can find fault in or about things that really do not matter any more ... The HOF is out in the middle of No PlaceVille , Illinois and in all probability gets so little traffic if it was eliminated few would even notice ... Most people feel the HOF should be re located and preserved someplace other than where it is so it would be more assessable to those interested in visiting ... I made it a point to walk through the HOF every year I was at the Grand in Vandalia always got the feeling it was a special place, since being relocated have no desire ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Martins Money is the Martins business, not ours or the ATA, let'em manage their own money any way they want. It's Their's.

GB...................................DLS