Stand Up for 1924 Target Settings for the ATA or Quit

Are you afraid the women will out shoot you on those SOFT Tartgets, I would be if I were you.

The H. Campbells, Ohyes, Winstons, McCarthy's, and all you other top dogs, are you afraid of the 1924 Target settings? Hell our forefathers and Women shot em.

Stand up for what's Right or QUIT TRAPSHOOTING. Go play marbles.

ATA my ass, What a Joke the ATA is..

Did any of you see what they shot with in 1924? Look at what your shooting?


Gary Bryant...................................Dr.longshot

 

1924 Trapshooters were real Trapshooters


GB...............................DLS

 

DLS, (Doc),
I will agree with you on a lot of things but damn if I am going to get dressed up to go trapshooting like they did back then ... They call it progress, the more it progress's the worse it gets ... I got to hand it to you , you are persistent ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Doc,
Trapshooting has been around for a long time.
The game has changed for better or for worse countless times.
Wouldn't you think the old-timers complained when they went from live birds to glass balls and then to clay targets.
Side by side to pump guns and semi autos to high rib and adjustable stocks.
Horse and buggies to cars and then trucks and motorhomes.
Kerosene lamps and candles to light bulbs and then halogen to now LED.
Suit and tie to shooting jackets to jeans and bib overalls and Crocks.

Probably.
Lost causes are Noble but just that, a lost cause.

 

Doc....I know something is right around the corner. Something new. Look for an announcement within a month Competitive shooting coming to the "every day type club. "

Trapshooting is not about an org. It is about the sport. Coming very soon.

 

TJ,
I could live with the suit and tie, But I will not wear one of those hats. Roger C.

 

FG, what would be the primary goals of this new Competitive trapshooting venue? Not being antagonist, just curious.

Thanks

 

Doc,

My guess is that none of the named shooters have any fear of more difficult targets. And, Kay Ohye was an advocate of the 50-yard, 3-hole target. He even wrote about it in 1981 and I personally heard him call for the return to the 3-hole setting in the mid 1990s.

Ohye’s Outlook
By Kay Ohye
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The comments, remarks and opinions expressed in this column are strictly mine and do not necessarily reflect the position of any official of the ATA or representative of the magazine.


Trapshooting is a sport and as such attracts participation because of the challenge and the thrill of a possible win. Shooting a high score should guarantee winning or, at least, placing in an event.

In recent years, however, there has been a trend toward throwing a softer target at our national championship, the Grand American. Delegates seem to have mixed feelings about throwing the old standard 50-yard three-hole bird versus the 48-yard, two-hole bird recently thrown at the Grand. The two-yard difference in length plus the reduced angle of the two-hole bird result in a less-challenging target.

Does a shooter want to shoot a winning score or merely a higher score? No one likes to shoot poor scores, but I feel that a shooter should win on the basis of his ability, not because the game is getting easier. It’s fine to tell the gang back home that you shot 97x100, but it seems very hollow when gauged against the number who also shot the same score. In addition the score did not probably win any trophies or money.

The two-hole target has also given a definite advantage to the long-yardage shooter – more so than any advancement in ammunition and guns. Many top shooters “read” the trap, and the elimination of the deep-angle target has further increased these shooter’s competiveness.

There has also been some discussion in recent years about making the one-ounce load mandatory. Although I believe that the incentive to do this is to decrease the long-yardage shooters’ potential to win, I think it will hurt all medium-yardage shooters as well. It will favor the short-yardage shooter. Again, I do not think any rule should favor one yardage group over another.

The one-ounce load for recoil reduction and reduced reloading price has helped many shooters. But I will continue to shoot 1 1/8-oz. loads as long as they are legal, since shooting one-ounce loads at 27 yards is equivalent to shooting a 20-gauge, which would give my competition too great an advantage.

The purpose of the handicap event is to equalize potential and to insure equal competiveness on any given day. The return of the 50-yard, three-hole target would further enhance this equalization, rather than turning toward a reduced shot load for a hope of the same results.

Let the winning score be a meaningful one for whoever is fortunate to shoot it. Let that person know he was truly the best in his class or yardage group. That’s what the game is all about.
TRAP & FIELD, January 1981

 

Could it be that NO extra concrete be added, and that being said, All venues, 16 Yd., Handicap, and Doubles are called for with the GUN BUTT held at the waist until the birds are thrown ?

OR, all venues be at a 0 to 3 second delay ?

Would cost nothing to the clubs, and would present a real challenge to the shooters.

Going to be interesting for sure.

 

There's a huge difference between shooting trap in 1981 and 2018. Kay can now call "PULL" from the 27 yd. line and actually get a target on time. Didn't he get his first Krieghoff K-80 around that time? If 1 oz. loads take a target or two away from Kay's score he'll still average higher than 85% of his competition. More yardage is the great equalizer.

 

[QUOTE="oleolliedawg, post: 55331, member: 146"More yardage is the great equalizer.[/QUOTE]
This is just plain true. And, it don't take a rocket scientist to "do the math."

Having said that, harder targets would make the game a lot more interesting and especially for singles. Singles are REALLY like watching paint dry. The only excitement in singles is the last 25 or so targets when one is straight.

 

Yes dawg, I think it was 1980. It was 1979 when Hal Dupont introduced the Krieghoff Model 80 Trap at the Grand.

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In early 1980 it was renamed the K-80. In his TRAP & FIELD June 1980 Ohye's Outlook article, Kay says he is now shooting the K-80.

Here's a little history (from his book "My Journey), regarding his involvement, with Dieter Krieghoff, with the design or should I say refinements of the K-80.

Enjoy,

​

​

 

Thanks for posting this info. I have at my access a K-90 I can shoot anytime. Only 2 ever made.

 

Make all targets fly 50 yards, with 3 hole angles from a wobble trap, using 1oz or 7/8oz loads.. That should liven things up a little. I'll vote for it.....

 

Like most any sport no matter how hard you make it the same basic guys will always rise to the top and win, unless its a matter of "luck" ie they stand so far back that birds fly through holes in the pattern. Just my opinion

 

That's what i think about, regarding the holes in the pattern. Shame to have done every thing right, only to be called loss cause of enlarged holes in pattern. Just one loss is one too many.

 

If you pattern shotgun-X, with choke-A, at 30-yards, and you can find a "hole in the pattern" large enough for a clay target to fit through ..... You can have "lost targets" at the 16 yard-line .....

Standing 16 yards from the point of "launch", then shooting 14 yards into "flight", can give you the 30 yard "hole in the pattern" ..... Shooting at 14 yards with a 50 yard target, would be a little over 1/4 of the way in it's "flight" .....

With clay targets being mass-produced, then "stored" in non-climate controlled places at the "Club", the "odds" of a "bad target" causing a "lost target", are much greater than "holes in the pattern" would be .....

 

WPT: Wouldn't it be nice to see shooters, shooting in a Suit and Tie, It would evolve Trapshooting Clothes, For Les Wexner and the Limited Brands. I used to wear Cowboy Boots and a Stetson Hat, and I still Have both.

GB.............................DLS

 

If the target settings being set as they were in 1924 was the only problem that existed it would be an easy fix ... The ATA has the targets settings in the rule book, clubs can choose to what standard they are going to set them ... The ATA is not going to tell any club to set a target that will drive customers away because they are the bread and butter of the Association in fact collect daily fees on behalf of the ATA so that's a no brainer right from the start ... The ATA being a Cash Cow for the ED, EC , and many of the BOD is primarily the problem, new guns, expenses paid to attend the Mini Grands all across the country and the list goes on and on ... The ATA condones Mini Grands because then they have reason to go there as representatives of the Membership and get paid for doing so besides get paid big money for the Official ATA Trophy's for those shoots ... There are changes far beyond the targets and setting of that need to be changed to get the Association back on track ... I doubt there are enough members who really care any more so I do not see any changes in the future, so get used to it .... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT: There are a lot of SMART dressers, Both Male and Female, still shooting Just look around. That's just the way the sport has been all these years.

GB...............................DLS

 

The attire or wardrobe a shooter wears is not going to make that person a better shooter any more that making target settings the same as they were in 1924 going to fix what is wrong with the ATA ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I wouldn't have told Sgt. York he had to dress up to shoot his rifle Iron !


He could shoot the eyes out of a gnat in his old britches.

 

Come on wpt. Research the forum's old posts. That is exactly what was done in the south. Tell me you cant remember when the All American point chasing xxxxx whined to the EC member that the targets were too hard.

Just to make sure the spacer bars in the houses were then tightly secured.

 

Speaking of climate controlled. Here are a couple of targets I picked up after shooting in the rain one day at a NY club.

I called these soft (soggy) targets.

NOT an ATA shoot.

7 through holes in the WF on the left, 3 holes in the Lawrey on the right.

I wonder IF these were my Lost targets...LOL

 

LOL indeed. Looks like all the targets I ever missed. I just knew it!

(My dear departed father used to say, when he would miss a pheasant on a relatively easy shot, "go ahead you son of a bitch, fly with your heart shot out!"

Kind of became a saying in my family and I and my two brothers still say it occasionally on the trap range.

 

White Flyer's dimple target came out around 1982 and they called the dimples "shot pockets." The new design announcement said it improved the target flight and improved shooters' scores.

​

 

HB,
The all black unpainted dimpled target that white flyer makes is the best flying target ever made. Roger C.

 

HB,

Just two questions,

1) What year did the ATA go to the two hole target?
2) What year was the 27 yard line added?

 

#1

The minimum angle settings, in place since 1955, were minimum right angles set as a straight-away target from Post 1 and left angles set as a straight-away target from Post 5.

Though the rules were changed in 1955, reducing the minimum left and right angle settings from 45° to 22°, I have confirmed from old-time target setters that many clubs were throwing a 22° angles in the late 1930s, in violation of the ATA rules.

The rules purposely never mentioned a "hole" setting. This was because many clubs were not equipped with the Western White Flyer V1524 trap which had 5 angle settings and a center hole for straight-away target setting & doubles. But in my opinion, there was an effort to place emphasis on the minimum right & left angle setting and not a "hole" or "notch" setting on traps.

Over the years, more and more gun clubs, for various reasons, started using the #2-hole setting on their Western White Flyer V1524 traps. The ATA threatened punitive action against those clubs but never followed through. The illegal 2-hole setting slowly became the norm. There were several attempts to educate target setters by the introduction of amendments to the rule but those changes largely just muddied up the water.

In August 1989, the rules were amended and for the first time in history, contained mention of both the Winchester 1524 trap and the 2-hole setting. Heretofore, it had only stated the minimum straight-away angle settings from Posts 1 & 5 and the equivalent of the minimum 22°. While good intentioned, this change opened the door for more misunderstanding and non-compliance.

In 1993, the E. C. attempted to provide clarification and compromise. They amended the rules to state that “commencing on October 1, 1993, all ATA Registered Targets thrown at any tournament where ATA trophies are awarded will be required to be thrown by traps set in the “3-hole.” Those with no history of our sport and target setting rules, perceived this as a change to wider targets. In actuality, it was an attempt at complying with the long-time 22° minimum angle standard for registered targets. So, the Board of Directors, rescinded the rules, returning to the previous language which was still a minimum 3-hole 22° angle setting.

Now, a group of Delegates with no knowledge of the rules, pushed (over the next few years) for the allowance of the 2-hole setting. Their motion at the 1995 annual meeting failed to gather enough votes, but they introduced the motion to reduce the difficulty of shooting trap again in 1996.

#1 Answer

At the annual Board of Directors meeting held during the 1996 Grand American, a majority of Delegates voted (August 5th I believe) and approved the 2-hole, 17.14° minimum right and left angle setting. The new rule was effective the 1997 target year, September 1, 1996.

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#2 Answer

January 1, 1955

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Enjoy Our History !

HB

 

HB,

Very enjoyable reading. Thank you for your contributions, they are much appreciated.

 

I noted that those who opposed the Target Angle were where the better shooters shot,Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California,
Idaho, Maine, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, South Carolina, Texas.

California, Texas,Arizona,New York,Nevada, I believe these States have the Largest Group of Long Yardage Shooters, some other, states should be on here but voted for narrower angles, 36/over 14, I was surprised at those states voted for the narrower 14 Degree angles.

GB...................................DLS

 

How does 1924 ammo loaded with fiber wads
compare with today’s plastic wad loads?

My assumption is that modern quality control provides a more
consistently uniform pressure and velocity.

Shot, not rubbing the side of the barrel and initially entering the airstream
within a plastic wad, likely patterns consistently “better” than the all paper blunderbus version.

Adding a few degrees to target angle along with additional speed
can be adapted to with practice by a competent shooter.

Any thoughts on how scores have improved over the years as a result
of plastic wads and improved shell performance?

 

Finbar,

Looking at the Grand Slams over the years I believe new and improved shells, guns, voice calls, traps, etc., have contributed a lot to the higher performance of shooters in the past 20 or so years.

 

With the popularity of the plastic hulls, and plastic wads I would have to think the pressures/velocities became more consistent. Along with not having to worry about swollen paper hulls (from moisture) that you could not chamber.