POLL Saving sport of trapshooting. Who's job is it?

Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum' started by merlo, Apr 7, 2018.

?

Who has the job of saving the sport of trapshooting?

  1. The big Orgs...ATA, PITA etc

    27.1%
  2. Local clubs

    33.3%
  3. Shooters

    70.8%
  4. Big venues

    4.2%
  5. This forum

    4.2%
  6. Vendors

    10.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. merlo

    merlo Mega Poster

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    Who has the job of saving trapshooting? This forum talks a lot about what or whom has caused some of the problems.
     
  2. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I would be confused on how or which way to vote right now being as the Organizations in charge should have the most control when it comes to promotion which would be in the saving column ... The shooters and little clubs all across America and beyond that host registered shooting are the ones who have always and will probably always be the biggest and best promoters of the sport ... The ATA could actually exist with the support of the clubs collecting daily fees but they might have to cut back on a few Bonus's and benefits ... I have been a Life Member since 1975 and though the ATA profess's to promote trapshooting there has been very little evidence of that except on a rare occasion ... The shooters (members ) cannot clean up the mess the elected officials have created in may instances and until they see the problem, there is no problem or need for changes ... Changes have to come from within the organizations that are able to make them, shooters (members ) can only assist by enforcing the changes and by being consistent ... The ED, EC, and many of the BOD do not see or feel a need for change because it does not effect them even though it does effect the Organization and the future existence of same ... It is tougher to keep a member than it is to recruit a member in many cases which member and clubs do on a regular basis or they used to any way ... The loss of respect the ATA has from the established members makes getting new members almost impossible to some degree ... Bad news travels fast and the ATA is a runaway train ... The clubs have a problem if they cannot attract Vendors, the local clubs do not need the ATA to put targets in the air, there are plenty of shooters to keep the clubs going ... Big Venues are not so big any more so until changes are made to attract more shooters they are just there ...

    This forum lays it all out there so read it and weep, no punches pulled and the only BS you might get a whiff of is a pot stirrer now and then ... Like Rodney King said before being arrested for domestic abuse, drugs, and a weapons charge, "Can't we all get along " , not sure he felt that way when he got sentenced and was elected the new tight end on the Prison TAG team ... I got to think about it and ponder before I vote ... Interesting question that truly does deserve an answer, maybe the ED, EC, and a few of the BOD should respond being as they would really have an insight but they would have to grow some stones first ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
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  3. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    Get rid of registered targets! It is an English shit not American. Open the doors and let everybody in.
     
  4. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    It is all shooters job, but the EC and BOD have the final say as to how it gets done. It seems that they do not have a clue as to how to proceed. They do not listen to the members, some of them are using the organization for a piggy bank. The rest of them either do not care or are not capable of making the adjustments that are needed.
    artor, The doors are open all you or any body else has to do is join. The targets targets would be a simple fix, the attitude of those in charge is the problem. Roger C.
     
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  5. davidson

    davidson Active Member

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    Only in 1 org. Only 1 of 10 targets in OH and PA are even registered.
     
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  6. Sthil

    Sthil Member

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    I would have to vote for all of the above. Non registered or registered is not the issue per the question
    getting people to the range and interested in shooting trap is the challenge.
     
  7. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    "Non registered or registered is not the issue per the question
    getting people to the range and interested in shooting trap is the challenge."

    Guess what not everybody has time to go and shoot registered. Shooting registered targets is a commitment not every body
    agree with.
    Let people to sign up to kick some registered targets shooters and you will see how the participation will increase.

    Once they feel that they can shoot and compete without any restrictions the big talents will come in.

    I talk to many that shoot recreational trap. The ONLY thing that keep them out of tournaments is the "wall" of the registered targets.

    Why in the hack you stick to registered targets anyway? It is politics, and politics kills the initiative!

    See how many people shoot recreational in a sunny Sunday and compare it with those who shoot registered.

    The ratio is 20/1 or even more.

    Take out your heads from the sand and face the reality!
     
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  8. Columbus

    Columbus Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    The ONLY thing that keep them out of tournaments is the "wall" of the registered targets.

    Don't understand.....what is the "wall"?
     
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  9. Old Goat 2

    Old Goat 2 Active Member

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    It occurs to me....after reading lots of comments here and other forums that trapshooting will not fade away soon, but the days of Competition are on a slippery slope leading to fewer and fewer registered tournaments with big payout$. Consider all the concerns about the "system" being manipulated by some competitors to the disadvantage of others....as in "cheating". Lots of examples are cited - everything from "sandbagging", deliberately missing targets or turning down tough targets, using pre-squad to get the "best" fields or banks or squads with buddies, classification irregularities, the list goes on and on. Most shooters are smart enough to see the money options are not the most prudent investment of their recreational dollar$...the deck is heavily stacked against the "average" shooter. All they have to do is read through the litany of complaints being discussed...oh, and unless you CONSISTENTLY (emphasis added) shoot scores in the mid- to high 90s, you are just funding the winnings for those that do. Me, the lucky number Lewis is about the only risky option considered. Trapshooting as a recreation will go on....but shooters have largely "wised up"....have fun and forget the big dollar paydays. Flame away! Ed
     
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  10. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    Old, you are talking about Trapistan Shooting Association, right? What you say can't happen here.
     
  11. Old Goat 2

    Old Goat 2 Active Member

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    ??? What is Trapistan? Ed
     
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  12. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Founding Member

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    A little known country just south of Iowa.
     
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  13. Brad's friend (I hope)

    Brad's friend (I hope) A NoBody Founding Member

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    We had a lot of fun with the people we met at ATA shoots.

    BUT I have to admit we had more fun, spent less time, and a lot less money, shooting the local leagues while supporting the local clubs.

    We noted the decline in Registered clubs each year, and I believe it is now below 1,000 this year.

    Local clubs do much better with the leagues, and a lot less hassle.
     
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  14. XTShooter

    XTShooter Active Member

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    I was just on the phone with our target supplier and he told me "there's a club in Wisconsin that throws in the neighborhood of 4 million targets" None of which are ATA. I prefer not to get in to the ATA mismanagement etc. but I don't see a decline in trapshooting, just a decline in ATA shooting. Our club began shooting our spring league this past Wednesday and we are up 2-3 teams from last spring and 4 teams up from our fall league last year. These are 7 person teams and shoot 50 targets a week for 8 weeks. Of the ±150 shooters only 10-12 will shoot ATA targets this year. 4 of those are High School aged with Mom and Dad footing the bill. All of them shot at least 20,000 ATA targets last year and plan to do the same this year if not more. They will shoot at least 3 State shoots, 3 Satellite Grands, as well as the entire Grand American. When they graduate High School and go to college or join the ranks of the "working man" I'll be looking on as to how many targets they shoot a year after that.
    I said that to get to this, IF a club has to rely on ATA to survive, they will be gone in a year. If they have a strong league, practice, recreational shooting crowd, they will live on as long as the surrounding area will let them. Economy ammo and hunting type shotguns will put more money in the coffers of a club than all the ATA targets shot every day and twice on Sunday!
    Who do I think will "save" the sport of trapshooting? All of the above combined!

    Just my $.02 worth.
     
  15. Old Fart

    Old Fart Member

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    IMHO: The cost of Registered Targets is a major problem in today's economy. The second problem is the Target Wall. The number of targets required before you can complete. It's hard enough getting people to the range as it is in our current economy with hitting them with out of line cost. Small local clubs do have the chance to excellent, if they keep their cost I line.
     
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  16. Family Guy

    Family Guy Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Do you think todays economy is worst than the recession of the Carter malaise, the great depression, the year the steel mills closed in OH and PA, Black Thursday, Dot Com crash etc?

    Those depressive times were part of the golden era of trapshooting. We have fewer shooters in the GAH than we did during the Korean War. It's the economy right?
     
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  17. gaspipes

    gaspipes Member

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    Fewer shooter at the GAH because it's in IL now and not in Ohio. :)

     
  18. gaspipes

    gaspipes Member

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    I like to shoot registered events. It gives me an average, keeps track of targets I've shot over a lifetime.

    The target wall? WTH, I've never had a problem registering targets. I can shoot ATA registered every weekend practically if I want to and stay within 75 miles of home. Registered or not, trap shooting is expensive. It always has been and it always will be. I would shoot a league, but it would be practice for an ATA weekend. I've got clubs around me that do 25 bird shoots, with 10 bird sub events etc. Middletown does a league in which you can show up and shoot your targets(50) on Wednesday's any time during the day. Hell, you can shoot a months worth of league targets in one day if you want to.

    To me, a league should be everyone shows up on whatever evening at 6pm and shoots the targets for the next 12 weeks or whatever.

    I wouldn't pack up my gun and shooting bag for a 25 bird shoot. I love 300 target days.
     
  19. Old Fart

    Old Fart Member

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    I shoot open trap, non-registered targets. I do not and will not belong to the ATA. My wife and I are retired, and enjoy open, non-registered trap shooting, but can't afford $30.00 + fees for 100 birds. The target wall referee to elsewhere keeps us pout of shoots. The requirement to shoot large number of registered targets is to high. IMHO: the ATA is trying to restrict the number and quality of shooters to a chosen few. I belive That has back-end in their faces. An shooting sport has to draw New and youth shooters, you all know that, you complain about it all the time. The cost of shotguns is another wall. Young family's can't afford $10,000 shotguns! I shoot a Stoeger Grand, my wife shoots a Winchester pump trap model. Nothing fancy, but both Guns shoot better than we can. Both at a cost of less than $1000. Long intro, I believe we are responsible for the future of our sport. We are also responsible for the current condition of our sport, and lack of New shooters. As I said, My Opinion. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to voice my opinion.
     
  20. gaspipes

    gaspipes Member

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    I shot on a squad with a 13 year old today who was shooting a K80.(Registered ATA shoot) Said he's been shooting 3 years. You don't need a $15k shotgun to be good at or competitive in trap shooting. The Krieghoff, Perazzi, Kolar, Bowen, Silver Seitz etc are luxury items. More power to ya if you have it but it's not necessary.

    I started with a Citori XT which I still shoot for doubles. And I have a BT99 Plus. Neither is considered an expensive gun as far as shotguns go. I good friend of mine, shooting a Citori XT and a BT99 was just punched to the 26.5 last weekend at the Mid American in Middletown OH.

    I don't know what "open trap" is. In southwest ohio you can shoot a 50 bird calcutta every Saturday all winter if you want to. That's as open as it gets. Cost ya about $40-45 for the targets and the compulsory calcutta money. That isn't cheap shooting. The cheapest shooting is the 50 bird league(glorified practice) or just straight practice no score keeper $4/25
     
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  21. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    Change the commercial trap ( recreational) to competition trap. Get rid of registered targets and find a
    classification that reflects the shooter's skill at the time of the tournament.
     
  22. gaspipes

    gaspipes Member

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    How are you going to classify shooters without registering targets in some form or fashion? If you are just shooting club shoots and practice and nobody is keeping score, how are you going to classify shooters when they go to some other place to shoot.

    We register targets to build a profile of known ability.
     
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  23. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    "We register targets to build a profile of known ability." you don't need to do that.
    You can be classified based on your score by using several criteria at the end of the tournament.
    If in one tournament you shot ex. D class score and in other A class score ,let be so.
    Many times a A shooter beats a AAA shooter and that reflects the reality of the day.
     
  24. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    That's why I liked the 50 bird Calcutta's, and the 90 Bird Buddy shoots, not too expensive but it takes your skill to a new level and cheaper, and the winnings are great. These shoots will last forever.

    Gary Bryant.............................Dr.longshot
     
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  25. Par4

    Par4 Well-Known Member

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    I am inclined to agree with those who believe plenty of trap targets are getting tossed. This indicates trapshooting is not in need of saving/fixing. ATA participation is what is in decline. The number of ATA participants and the number of registered targets thrown are where help is needed. The structure of that help is open to debate. Still, concensus at the conclusion of the debate is doubtful.

    I see the complaint about minimum target requirements. It logically follows that this complaint concerns penalty classification and penalty yardage. The goal of minimum target requirements, penalty classification and penalty yardage is to prevent the “came from nowhere winner.” I do not know of any other way to accomplish the goal. I recognize that most here are aware of this.

    The classification system works pretty good I think. The only complaint I know of about the classification system was addressed with the creation of the AAA class in singles and doubles for the higher ability shooters. Minimum target requirements seek to address the lesser classes.

    My ATA participation has covered about 35 years. I have always heard complaints about the handicap system though. It has been tinkered with and tweaked in attempts to fix it. However; the complaints have not ceased. They have just changed some.

    Those who have been around awhile have witnessed or have heard of the shooter who performs very well in practice, non-registered or some portions of some registered events. They then show up in another part of the country at a large event and beat the system from short yardage. Who has not heard the joke about options on the first seventy-five targets to avoid punches?

    People have choices: at least in some areas of the country. They can choose the registered concept, various non-registered concepts or both. Many are just choosing sporting clays or action pistol shooting: both of which were not available options during the height of ATA participation. The height of ATA participation may very well parallel the height of NSSA participation. I confess I do not have any figures on that.

    In the beginning there was the shotgun sport of flyers. Trap was born with the goal to duplicate flyers with a target which was not living. Skeet was born to simulate shots one may encounter when hunting. Sporting clays does a better job at simulating hunting sometimes.. It does a better job at that than skeet. However, many sporting stations do not resemble any game bird I have ever seen on the wing.

    One of the big attractions in sporting competitition is the lack of perfect scores required. Then there are the sporting shooters who have no desire to compete. They do it just for fun. No big investment or dedication required.

    Investment of time and money is required to reach the top in any shooting discipline with a governing body which provide the rules and a printed program available in advance. Some kind of new system without a governing body and rule book will not fix competion trap on a nationwide basis. Prizes based on high score only or high score and some kind of “criteria” to award some less than event champions can work in the local or near local level. However, when cross country travel in the United States is involved? Good luck with that!

    Now, those who had the foresight to predict the decline of The Grand in Illinois were correct. I said I would never go due to the politics of the State selected. I backed off that due to earning a C of C spot I never earned when the Grand was in Vandalia. Now I can say I have been there and done that. If I earn a spot again; I wish the runner-up the best of luck.

    Keep the brass flying unless you catch your hulls or shoot steel!
     
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  26. Par4

    Par4 Well-Known Member

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    I was remiss in not specifically addressing the comment regarding elimination of registed targets. My nearest location to shoot practice or registered targets is 175 miles. However, they only toss registered twice every target year and three times every other year. How I managed to make the 250,000 club is a mystery to many. You could say I attended more than a few marathons and confined most of my trophy shoot participation to a minimum of three day long events. If you said that; you would be correct.

    Games, leagues and non-registered competition events are not available to me or others with similar commutes to shooting venues. Any person who would suggest the elimination of registered targets is out of touch with reality, lives within easy commute of one or more venues, obtuse or any combination of those which may apply. If registered trap becomes a thing of the past; my recreational activity would not involve a shotgun. How could that be good for trap shooting?
     
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  27. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Trap shooting over all has not stopped or been eliminated but people are trying other forms of shooting sports when and where available and many have cut back and or eliminated registered shooting (ATA) for what ever reason they find, any and all reasons would be considered valid ... The membership of the ATA had let their feelings be known on many occasions about some and or certain things and they get ignored so many move on or just shoot practice rather than support something they do not believe in ... The ATA is in a position where they can exist on the daily fees collected on their behalf at the registered shoots at any and all of the clubs that choose to host registered shoots ... Club leagues, games, practice, and the list goes on and on that would give a person good reason to go out and shoot a few rounds of trap and not submit to the extra cost of registered targets ... I like to shoot handicap so on many occasions for me to get in 100 targets its an all day thing, so I find talking to people I have met and talked to over the years to kill the time ... I would like to find some games one or two evenings per week just to give me a reason to get out of the house ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  28. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Artur Cordea,

    What would be the point of belonging to an organization that lets non members participate and would not be record keeping of the shooter achievements?

    How do you propose to have a “pro class” in an amateur sporting organization which by the non profit 503(c)3 regulations of the IRS say “no?”


    Why don’t you stop wasting your time with such silly thoughts and start your own pro organization that lets all comers participate? Can be hard, all you have to do is cough up a couple million to hold the shoots and pay these pros. It it is such a great idea, why hasn’t someone thought of doing it with pin the last 100 years?
     
  29. Smithy

    Smithy Mega Poster Founding Member

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    It looks like the new format for the championship series does that. Not to berate the ATA but the ATA isn't trapshooting. It is a corporation.
     
  30. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    How so? You saying it is no longer a 503(c)3 non profit?
     
  31. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    This should be good. Artur Codrea talking trap shooting to Azcotrap
     
  32. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    You guys you look busy like the dog chasing its tail.

    Once the 100,000 membership NR went down to 30,000 it is time to open the box and put the gray material( brain) to work

    What is the shotgun ownership in US ? Like 50 million or more!

    Get rid of that shit called " registered" open the doors to anyone wants to compete and find a classification that reflects
    the shooter's skill at the time of the tournament.( I can help on that, for sure) No need of any record, just show up and shoot!
    Make the ATA membership available to anyone without any restriction( registered) that will increase the member NR significantly and with that the sponsors will get interested.
    Work on a new format to make it more challenging and interesting for those who are not happy on what they get today
    Many more things can be done but only if is commitment and open mind attitude. (Oleo is excluded from this he is an anchor):)
    Otherwise this subject will stay alive on this forum long time from now on.
     
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  33. Smithy

    Smithy Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Earth to FI#2. (don't make me say what FI stands for). The "C" in 503C stands for corporation. The ATA is a corporation. It is not a sport.

    Torture......
     
  34. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Smithy

    Have you ever read publication 555 put out by the IRS?

    Yes, 503(c)3’s are corporations, but they are non profit corporations and in this case, set up for the promotion of amateur sporting, trapshooting. It has been that way ever since the tax laws governing non profits was created.
    They must have bylaws and articles of incorporation.
    They must NOT, disperse funds or property to members.
    They can make a profit, but are not taxed the same as a for profit corporation is.
    If the organization disbands, no property or funds are dispersed to the membership. The property and assets, must be donated or sold to another non profit or government. Funds must be donated to another non profit or government.
     
  35. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    I guess you don’t understand it or all of your posts are a big joke. The 100,000 was the total number of people who joined the ATA since 1900 and it took 80 years to get there. I doubt there has been more than 30,000 active members shooting over the last 40 years. There has never

    You are hung on the word registered, the ATA is a membership organization. If you want to play, you must join up. People are free to shoot non registered targets, not belong to any organized shooting outfit, put on any type of shoot they want. You do not need the ATA, PITA or any organization to do that. Your suggestions are completely ridiculous.
     
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  36. gaspipes

    gaspipes Member

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    AZCOTRAP right on! Especially the "suggestions completely ridiculous" part.

    Artur, You can show up at any shoot you want and just shoot. However if it is an ATA sanctioned shoot you will have to pay the $18 annual fee and you will shoot penalty yardage and class. That shouldn't bother you though. Because as far as you are concerned, class doesn't matter and whatever yardline penalty yardage is, is just a place to stand.
     
  37. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    Too complicated . Let me to shoot where I want and when I want, without any penalty and other shit

    Sign up, pay the entry and shoot the birds. If i want to shoot from 27, so be if I want to shoot from 16Y, the same.

    The new classification I thing about, will put me where I belong BASED ON MY SCORES on the day of the competition.

    Easy to understand and not complicated at all.
     
  38. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Too complicated? Well ATA is not for the simple minded that is for sure, but here is your problem. The ATA is not some big corporation run buy 5 or 6 large stock holders like many of you think it is. The 30,000 members are the ones preventing you from entering one of their membership shoots and you not wanting sign up. I think you are hilarious and will look for your future posts when I need some comic relief.
     
  39. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Artur Cordea,

    I wanted to ask you one more thing so I can get a feel for what you are saying. You aren’t by chance a member of the Communist Party are you?
     
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  40. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    AZco, get out of your weed induced dream and then we can talk..
     
  41. Par4

    Par4 Well-Known Member

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    Artur Cordea:

    Sure, shoot the venue you prefer. However, why try to dictate your view of traphooting upon any other individual or group? Your narrow view of what is correct for you does not apply to the population of the United States as a whole. You come off as very totalitarian philosophically. Stop using we and use first person (you alone).

    Your obtuse views fail to contemplate others. It is obviously selfish in nature.

    Your repeated use of expletive deleted indicates a real lack of english vocabulary. You have not contributed anything in an articulate fashion.

    This is my view. I have no doubt my view does contemplate the views of some other individuals. We do what we like.

    You go ahead and handicap yourself at the 15 yard line in the weeds. Your narrow view would shrink trapshooting if abopted, How could that be helpful?
     
  42. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    Par4, in a couple of years you will have no score keeper either because they get bore also.
    Instead of criticizing me put up some ideas on how to bring people in the shooting range and keep them interested.
    Waiting...
     
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  43. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    One more thing, if you want to see improvement , put young people to run the show. They are the engine of progress.
    I am done with this subject!
     
  44. Par4

    Par4 Well-Known Member

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    Early on in this thread AC; you indicated your belief that registered trap was no good for any person, anywhere at any time. You write in such a manner to indicate you are only able to think in such absolutes.

    I did write a great deal regarding why registered trap shoots are my only option. Yes, I can also shoot some practice targets while there.

    There are no clubs in close proximity to me. Registered trap shoots of multiple day duration are my only viable option due to the travel involved. I know others in similar situations due to geography.

    However, you have chosen to ignore the reality faced by others. The evidence is your continuing advocacy of the abolition of registered trap shooting for the greater good of all. The loss of one or more shooters from the adoption of your scheme would be counter productive. My choice will not bring new shooters in droves. However, it does no harm. Your idea is harmful to the sport as it eliminates shooting opportunities for some.

    If you continue to persist in your unwillingness to accept a reality other than your own; you have earned any criticism you have been given. Now if I have misinterpreted your stance; please try to articulate your view in such a manner an ordinary person of average intelligence can understand.
     
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  45. gaspipes

    gaspipes Member

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    The only one in a weed induced dream here is you. You want to show up at an organized shoot, shoot when you want from where you want at the time you want? LOL!! At my club we do that 6 days a week, closed on Monday. It's called practice and you can do whatever you want. Trap, sporting clays, skeet or 5 stand. Have at it, no score keeper, no rules. $4/25 - Sporting clays is $15/50
     
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  46. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    AZCO and Artur, Would make good stable mates. Neither seems to be playing with a full deck. Or to put it gently neither has a full load of intelligence. But they do keep us from getting bored. Roger C.
     
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  47. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Roger,

    The thing I noticed about you is you cannot make an intelligent or factual statement so you deride and insult people in order to make yourself to look big and important. You are not. Grow up.
     
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  48. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    The only people I reply here is those of 35-40 YO . The old farts are burned out and just drag the subject to their side.
    They are with the " registered" like the cows surrounded by a fence If you take out the fence they still there because they don't know what is out.
     
  49. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Than what happens to you when you become an old fart yourself in 35 years?
     
  50. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    I stay on my ass and let young people to run the show!
     
  51. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    And what happens when you find yourself in a “Logan’s Run situation where all those over 30 are exterminated? What you don’t understand is those with the money rule the world. Young people with rare exception have none, You might learn this lesson if you live long enough.
     
  52. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Seems you don’t mean what you say, even you don’t believe your own words, I am going to be on the road for the next couple days, I can hardly wait until I am at my destination to follow more of your pearls of wisdom........NOT!
     
  53. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    If those who got the money( old farts) run the show, then why the membership went down from 100,000 to 30,000?

    I believe in my words but I am talking to the walls, so I am done!
     
  54. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Let's take Yankee Hill Gun Club for instance, On a Saturday evening you start out shooting 10-16 yards, 10-20 yards, 10-25 yards, 10-27 yards, each cost $ 4.00, shoot all of them or which you want there is a purse on each, ties shoot off or split.

    Then comes the Mini Calcutta, 10 16yds, & 15 Handicaps what you break no closer than the 22, yds 2 or 3 places depending on how many shooters show up, I do not remember the cost I will Guess $15.00,

    In my early days I won this shoot 17 weeks in a row.

    Then comes the 50 bird Calcutta, 25- 16s and then 25 Hdcp, Shooters are sold to get more money into the purse, there is a Lewis Class and Long Run Fwd. & Rev. if memory serves me. , This shoot has been going on since at least, 1965.

    I remember they had 7-$300.00 Jackpots on the wall a few years ago.

    Last shoot of the night is 5 from the Porch for $5.00

    I was there last Saturday to try shooting, I attempted the 16yd shoot, could not hold the gun up so shot the last 7 targets from the hip and broke 6 of them. I quit and played cards and went home. That was the first targets I shot in over 18 months.

    These are the kind of shoots that shooters like, and will keep on Keeping on. Yours in Faith & Trust.
    Shooters like Danny Ryan, Louie Morgan, Steve Corwin, John Wardell, Larry Smith, Danny Keaton are just a few shooting.

    Gary Bryant..........................Dr.longshot
     
  55. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE WRITTEN LANGUAGE. HOW CAN YOU NOTICE ANY THING ABOUT WHAT A PERSON WRITES. I wrote that in big slow letters hoping you can understand its meaning. Maybe your baby sitter can explain it for you. I grew up many years ago, and now I can pick out the people that are full of them selves and you fit in that catigory. Little knowledge, but long on B.S. Now go and pout in you favorite coroner. Roger C.
     
  56. oldskt94

    oldskt94 Active Member Founding Member

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    Gary
    I can't believe u found that many suckers for that long.
     
  57. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Do you understand your words to begin with?

    The ATA began in 1900 and the first membership was handed out beginning with membership #1.

    In 1980, membership number 100,000 was issued.

    That 100,000 membership number you keep harping on is the total number of people that joined the ATA from 1900 to 1980 a period of 80 years.

    If the numbers were static, it would mean 1250 joined the ATA every year from 1900 to 1980.

    If that truism carried forward today, then there would be 147,500 members that joined since 1900.

    There never was 100,000 ATA members all alive and all shooting in a one year period.
     
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  58. artur codrea

    artur codrea Well-Known Member

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    I got it, but considering the shotgun ownership in US 100, 000 would be a fraction if the system would work!!
     
  59. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    But the system is not much different than skeet, sporting clays or bunker, only a very small fraction of shotgun people belong. It’s not the system, it’s the desire of lack of it to take up a shooting discipline. If you cannot join the ATA as it is, noting it can do will make you want to. You are just making excuses. Imagine if more than 5-6% of the 100 million gun owners in this country belonged to the NRA?
     
  60. LimaShooter50

    LimaShooter50 Active Member Founding Member

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    Sounds like this right? From Merlo's description of upcoming Championship Series.

    1. Rules

      125 bird event.

      The targets will be 55-57 yards.

      All shooters will shoot ammo provided by shoot management.

      Ammo will be given at the firing line.

      Ammo will be one ounce 1200 fps or a little slower.

      No failures to fire allowances. A bird not shot that is whole is a loss.

      There are no illegal targets.

      Shoot at a broken target and the results will be scored.

      Handicapping as follows.
      Everyone shoots the first 25 targets from 25 yards. Handicapping goes to number of birds you broke. Minimum yardage 20. The next 100 targets will be shot at the handicap yardage.

      There will be a re-squad after the first 25.

      Target Setting

      Targets will be set at wider than the straightaway from stations 1 and 5.

      Expect targets to be over 55 yards long.

      Moneys

      Much of the money and purses are still being determined.

      There will be a reverse run jackpot supplied by a forum.

      There is added money from vendors.

      There is a forum contributors purse.

      There is a mandatory % purse. 40, 30, 20, 10 for the top 4 numbers shot. Ex. 112, 111, 100, 109.

      There will only be shoot offs for trophies.

      Trophies. High score from longest yardage, Champion, Lady, Youth.
      ------------------------------------------------


      First shoot is labor day weekend. There will be a preliminary event Saturday. Special event auction Saturday evening.
      Sunday is the main event.

      I am told there will be 2-3 shoots next year to determine National Champ. They will be Labor Day and Memorial Day weekends, and maybe one mid summer. To be National Champ you will have to shoot both events. (Total Score)
      ------------------------------------------------------------

      I report. You decide.

      Merlo out


     
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  61. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    So there is your venue.

    If it truly is what most shooters want, it will catch on and expand across the country and ATA will adopt it.

    If ATA does not adopt, a new national shooting organization will be created to schedule the shoots, enforce the rules of the discipline and find enough shooting locations to hold such shoots.

    If a new organization pops up, what will you have? Another version of ATA, but with the additional difficulty some people are wanting and/or claim is necessary or it will be a regional discipline.

    Maybe in 100 years, there might be 30,000 members if we are still allowed to own firearms.

    Some people will belong to both orangazations, some just the one.

    Those who have age, eyesight or disability issues will participate in the discipline that gives them the most satisfaction and “bang for the buck.” Pun intended.
     
  62. Garry

    Garry Well-Known Member

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    Have the organizers made a decision on which gun club(s) will host this new venue?
     
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  63. merlo

    merlo Mega Poster

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    They have not decided. It is to be a series....several places. Only one I think this year.

    I report. You decide.
    Merlo out
     
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  64. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I hear thru the grape vine that this event has the EC's panties wadded up pretty tight. Could this be true? Why should they care? Roger C.
     
  65. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    So where did you hear this from? It’s not a registered shoot. Is the EC meeting right now? Is it more teenager gossip started to make the ATA look bad again? Is this like the ATA not caring that Ben Avery steering newcomers to sporting clays when no ATA shoots are happening?
     
  66. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    azcotrap, I ask my toaster about you, and the reply was that I was spot on when a named you a shit stirrer. So from here on in you are persona non grata. BYE BYE Roger C.
     
  67. AZCOTRAP

    AZCOTRAP Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Roger,

    You just st don’t seem to realize you are the “problem” with what is wrong with the ATA. You tell all kinds of untruths, gossip, bullshit, and admit you “heard it on the grapevine” which indicates to me you are either starting or spreading useless gossip. This is useless crap that gets passed on by people who behave like a bunch teeny boppers looking for attention amongst their peers.

    I am the “shit stirrer?”

    I don’t think you will ever fully understand fixing whatever imagined problems there is with the ATA could end with the end of the bull shit. I will tell you again, you need to grow up, act like an adult.

    .
     
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