Poll Life members only willing to set down with the ATA

Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum' started by dr.longshot, Nov 26, 2018.

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Poll: Life members only willing to set down with the ATA willing to drive to Mtg. (Life members)

  1. Count me in.

    56.3%
  2. No way not interested.

    43.8%
  1. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Life Members, Delegates, and Concerned Members willing to travel to Mtg Site to be declared if ATA is willing to sit down, w/ ATA President. ATA # please. Or pm me the number.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2018
  2. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    Give up, Doc.
    Do you honestly think that after all these years they're going to give audience to the few that want things back to what they used to be?
    Nice dream, but that's all it is, a dream.
     
  3. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    why didn't you vote do you care


    GB..............................DLS
     
  4. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    I care. But what's the point? You guys have been bitching for years and what good has come from it?
    Nothing, nothing at all.
     
  5. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Win101,
    We have been commenting for a long time. Mostly because no nothing shooters will not get competitive. To many want to get a buckle that says champion on it just for showing up. They are called wuntabees, do you fit that class? Roger C.
     
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  6. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    You get the chance to have a say and you just Lie down, REAL GREAT Win101.

    GB...........................
     
  7. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Now you know why the ATA is in the shape it is in.

    I am the only one that stands up for Change.

    GB.............................DLS
     
  8. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    And how long have you been standing?
    Have you been at all successful?
     
  9. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Win101, You sound like many of the trap shooters that do not measure up. Lets make the game easier, so we can shoot better score. It doesn't mater that the game will be easier for the good shooters, they can not get any better as they break them all now, but we can maybe match them. It seems like the sport is only attracting shooters and not enough competitors.
    Do you fit this bill? Roger C.
     
  10. Win101

    Win101 Mega Poster

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    Roger, I shoot very little registered anymore. Never did shoot a lot of registered anyway
    Spent many years when my boys shot for a youth team that I helped start and coach.
    Actually achieved my Level 2 NRA/ATA/ USA Shotgun Coach Certification. Retired from coaching last year after 12 years and scores of kids.
    Didn't have extra time to shoot.
    Been around the game for 45+ years with meat shoots, leagues, registered and coaching.
    Set targets when I was 10 at the local VFW to earn enough to be able to shoot a couple rounds a week.
    I remember the 45 degree 3 hole targets and the old Winchester/Western traps.
    Really don't remember those targets being any harder to break than they are now.
    Maybe they were and I just don't remember.
    I shot 25 straights then just as regularly as I do now.
    The "softer" target of today is just as easy to miss as they were almost 50 years ago to me.
     
  11. iowa guy

    iowa guy Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Doc, Why are just life members invited to this party? Under the current rules life members have no more input to the ATA than an annual member, so why leave them out?

    I am a life member and voted no. Not because I'm not interested, but I'm not willing to drive more than an hour or two for a meeting that will have no bearing on what the ATA does.
     
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  12. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Iowa Guy: My thinking is we have more expierence the way it was before all the changes, that new members know nothing about the way a competetive shoot should be run. Money wise, trophy wise, lewis classes, championship shoot wise, Ford purses wise, mandatory yardage increases and decreases, Purchasing trap machines, targets, and food vendors, temporary cards, permanent cards, eliminating some classes,penalties, there is so much the life members know, tha is just for starters.

    GB..............................DLS
     
  13. kilmon

    kilmon Member

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    DLS, Great way to encourage new shooters and bring them into our ranks. Their opinion apparently doesn't matter to you. Only the old guys opinion matters. Guess what, the new guys are what keeps any organization going. Their opinion should matter a great deal more than the old guys.
     
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  14. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Kilmon,
    Would it not be better to inform them that this is a competition sport, or are you satisfied with making them a bunch of wusses. Fluff targets, trinkets for trophies, atta boys for showing up, and using their daily fees as a piggy bank for the people in charge. Roger C.
     
  15. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Kilmon: New shooters, are just that NEW, They know Nothing of what happened to ATA Shooting, prior to 1989, They were not born yet. They have no idea of what to negotiate for, that's it in a nutshell.

    GB...............................DLS
     
  16. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Win 101: It has been a long time, and will do so till the Day I Die.
    I love shooting Competetive Handicap targets, And shooting 16 yds is STILL LIKE WATCHING PAINT DRY.

    GB.........................................DLS
     
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  17. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I think and feel that over the course of time being as the Members accepted anything and everything the Powers that be throw at them it is probably a wasted effort, but if by chance it did happen the meeting would be cut very short when some of us got up and voiced our opinions in the faces of the EC, ED, and BOD … It is not going to happen but if it was ever scheduled I would be there just to watch the FOOLs, make even bigger FOOLs of themselves when face to face with the membership … The number of members that remain and have an ounce of respect left for the powers of the ATA are thinning rapidly …

    Doc, (DLS)
    I think your intentions are pure and sincere, but lets all get over it, its not going to happen … WPT … (YAC) …

    PS . If it was limited to Life Members you would need more than half of them to attend ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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  18. rookieshooter

    rookieshooter Elite Poster

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    Plus, how many members would need to be at the meeting for the ATA to even think about entertaining such an idea?
     
  19. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    WPT: Your negativity is in the favor of the ATA, It has to be Life Members, if only a few, standing up with a Petetion we would have more Voice, some life members that cannot attend, need a speaker for them, You guys have NEVER SEEN or HEARD ME,speak negatively on competetive target settings different from the 1924 settings that HB, Posted, I have been one STRAIGHT ARROW for 1924 Target settings, OK You say they are in the RULE BOOK, no one is enforcing it, NOW if ATA GUN CLUBS throws soft targets, FINED $ 5,000 and lose registration rights for 90 days 1st offense, and $7500 and 6 mos for 2nd offense, $10,000 and 3 years for 3rd offense, ATA would have TEETH in ENFORCEMENT, and no arbotration in fine reduction or non-registration time limits.

    GB.......................................DLS
     
  20. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I propose we give Doc a badge with "Official ATA Target Police" in bold letters. He'd have unlimited access to all traps throwing registered targets. A $100 stipend should be added for travel expenses. Everyone in favor say "aye"!
     
  21. rookieshooter

    rookieshooter Elite Poster

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    You could be ''Deputy dawg''.
     
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  22. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Doc.
    A better idea than your fine schedule. Maintain the first part, a second offence suspend registered shooting until club manager is gone. I think a little added incentive for the managers would be a good idea. Roger C.
     
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  23. iowa guy

    iowa guy Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Doc, how do you propose these rules be enforced? You can’t really do it after the fact and determine with 100% certainty how the targets were set on the day of the shoot. It could work for shoots where there is someone of authority, either in the state or national level, that can check the targets. If not set up fairly, your suggestion could do more damage to local ATA shooting than moving the grand to Sparta.
     
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  24. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Iowa guy,
    We need men of integratiy running the registered shoots. We have had it with cheaters. If I shoot all fluff targets and you shoot properly set targets and I make the state team and you do not. Do you think that is fair? something must be change to keep our sport on an even basis. Roger C.
     
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  25. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Gary,
    I do not see anything in favor of the ATA and the way they do business in what I posted, I can tell you they do not care if you are a life member or a first time annual member they do not care and will not put them self in a position to be confronted by the Membership or ever have to answer to the membership ... You talk about the target settings as if they are what is the biggest thing wrong within the organization when in fact they are only a very small part of what is really the matter ... You are not a one man band but you harp about the targets as if making the changes in target settings will clean up the entire organization (WRONG) ... The elected officials of the Association use it like a cash cow, get allowances for representation of the members when in fact they do not want to have to deal with the members or anything that can upset their way of doing business and them being paid volunteers ... Changing the settings on the targets to 1924 and not revamp the way they do business and you are not changing anything that would make a hill of beans difference ... You make statements about fines, like they are really going to happen, got news for you they ain't ... You can request, demand, anything you want so far as getting the ATA to sit down and listen to what the members want and that ain't going to happen either ... Life Members, annual members or any ass hole who walks in off the street will not get their attention unless it is done by order of a court, and that ain't going to happen either ... You set it up, I'll be there but I won't be holding my breath waiting for it to happen, because it won't ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

    In case you have not looked so far there are 13 reply's and you can bet your last dollar there are more than 13 life members and none of give a shit either ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
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  26. Garry

    Garry Mega Poster

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    Ditto
     
  27. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Columbus: You have not been around Trapshooting long enough to see what has Progressively been changed, I could not change your opinion on anything and I am too old to argue with you, 5 things to change, #1 Target Settings #2 enforcement by $ fines against clubs, on narrow 30 degree targets, #3 All Sattelite Grands not to pay the Drastic Fees they charge clubs, clubs need to make money. #4 Do away with some ribbon classes #5 mandatory Yardage Reductions, & Yardage increases on sandbaggers. Drastic regulations on Disciplinary actions that should have been verbal warnings. Do away with Past Presidents $20,000 guns, The tournament Directors Wages too high for the job. Bidding on the Trapmachines, Sattelite Grands do not need ATA officials of any kind, $Thousands saved here. This is just a few, get the drift now?
    No response will be given.

    GB..................................DLS
     
  28. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    This poll was started Nov 26, 2018, to date there have been 13 responses which pretty much tells the story in the long run, there are not enough Life Members who care or to make a difference when it comes to target settings or the operation of the ATA ... If you think that would be enough to convince the ED, EC, or any of the BOD to make remedial changes you have another think coming ... Until the day comes where someone hands them a court order and freezes the assets of the Association it will be business as usual, so get used to it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  29. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member

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    Amen!
     
  30. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I hope you guys are satisfied with all of your negativity, It's no wonder the ATA is where it's at, you all must like kissing Neil Winston's ass, you are nothing more than Brown Nosers in Sheeps CLOTHING, I am disgusted with you, as you are all showing you position on this site trying to make the ATA & Trapshooting a DIS-Competetive Sport.

    Gary Bryant A Competetive Shooter..........................................Doctor Longshot
     
  31. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I stand w/the 7 Dedicated Shooters yhat voted to go to the meeting if I can get one scheduled
    Rome was not built in a Day, But with the Likes of of all the Negative posters on this site were in ROME.
    ROME would have been Built, You actually Tear Down everything that has been accomplished on this site.

    Why was this site started in the first place? my next thread coming
    ..


    GB..................................................DLS.
     
  32. Columbus

    Columbus Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    Please post this answer in the correct thread - be glad to respond to it there. You know the one, "Your (sic) not much.........
     
  33. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    If it matters, I voted "Count me in", so 8 of the 14 Life Members voted that way … WPT … (YAC) …
     
  34. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Doc,
    I would be glad to set down with the EC. I doubt if it will ever happen. They feel that they are the smartest people in the room, and do not need any help from the members. You need a small group of concerned members authorized by the rest of the members to take our concerns to them in a civil manor with no hostility and ask to help save the registered agenda.
    Doc. You have a PM. Roger C.
     
  35. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Active Member Founding Member

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    Wow, now we are talking of penalizing clubs! Good luck with that. Clubs in my general area are not throwing registered targets now, simply because when they do, the participation is not worth them opening up!

    The ATA is dying along with the disgruntled old shooters that can't handle changes. Some who don't even shoot anymore. Figure that out. The days of making $10,000 with a $200 gun are gone! Now it is make $200 and spend $1000's if you are lucky. Even if a kid now days wins a big registered competition, once they see what they get, and what they have to put into it themselves as they grow older to stay there at that level, and once married and kids come into play, it is not likely organized shooting has a chance to survive. So, go ahead and start your own organization. Spend everything you have with time and energy, I guarantee you it will fail. Even with your own throw back rules.

    You have to ask yourself, even if everything is what you want it to be, what will make people of medium means or higher, want to spend every single penny they have extra, to shoot registered targets. That is what it is coming down to. Choosing between other things and sports to participate in, or one single expensive sport to try and compete in for what, a trophy? Think about what the cost will be today to become a "Big Dog" shooter. What will that bring? I can think of many other sports to where a "Big Dog" status would be well worth the effort, time, and money.
     
  36. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    To Whom It May Concern,

    The ATA's ED, EC, and many on the BOD are never going to allow themselves to be put in a position or be put in a circumstance where they will be called upon to answer to the Membership face to face, Life Members or annual makes no difference … The way the ATA has been structured by manipulation is so things like that cannot and will not happen … The elected Officials do not want anyone to upset their apple cart or remotely think about changing things back to the way they were at one time or at any time in the past … To question a Man's Integrity, Honesty, and Honor because they do not agree with you or your assessment is asinine at best … WPT … (YAC) …
     
  37. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    WPT,
    Unfortunetly I think you are 100% correct. It would be nice to think the sport could be made as good as it was when I first started registering targets. As Sty said things change and so do people, when we are gone there will be no one to compare the new age game to the old one, so it will survive to only be a shadow of what it once was The new shooters will never know what they missed.
    Sty,
    I do not think a new shooting program would fail. There will always be a large group of competitive shooters, it will never equal the heyday of the ATA, but I believe it will be a vialble alternative to the ATA agenda. Sporting Clays is a very good example of stiff competition. It seems to be surviving fairly well. Live bird shoots are still doing fine, and the payoffs are huge, they are just not advertised, and very expensive to shoot in. Roger C.
     
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  38. rookieshooter

    rookieshooter Elite Poster

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    It will never get Big again, without major corporate money. Big money to me is not the money shooters pull out of their own pockets. Sure there are some big winners, but big losers as well.
    Took a Grandson to a big shoot at the CC to see what he thinks about ATA trap shooting. He was impressed about the size of the event. He asked about the cost and who were the big money sponsors. When I told him, well years ago we had some, he never again asked to go.
     
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  39. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    The sponsors were lost due to inept management. They lost the alure of the game when they felt they were being used, this was due to poor management on the part of the EC and people that they hired. The sponsors were not given the respect they needed to keep supporting the game. They got the same feeling that many of our older shooters feel, so they left and put their money else where. Roger C.
     
  40. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Active Member Founding Member

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    That is also another thing, Sporting Clays offers course variation. Now days shooting 200 singles targets is monotonous and boring to the younger generation. Hell, I know of some real good older trapshooters that shoot only Sporting Clays now. Was it because they no longer felt ATA registered trap was worth it anymore, or was it Sporting Clays is just more interesting and competitive. When I drive past the popular Sporting Clays clubs they are parking in the fields and out on the roads, because they don't have room for parking in the lots. That seems to tell me that Sporting Clays is growing, while trap is going the other way.

    Then again, you run the targets on a Sporting Clays course, you more than likely won't be in a shoot off let alone with four or five other people.

    Or what about Bunker shooting?
     
  41. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Founding Member

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    "or what about bunker shooting" - empty parking lot.
     
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  42. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I think it would be a great idea to find out exactly how many Life Members and annual Members there are, if by chance there was ever going to be a meeting scheduled I do believe there would have to be a Majority of the Membership be it Life or Annual or it would be meaningless ... The By Laws of most Corporations are normally written in such a way that it would call for a Majority for any changes to be considered or made ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  43. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Sportsmen have viewed trapshooting as monotonous for a long time. They also felt the many near perfect scores were not good for the game. Here's a couple items from the early 1920s. "Are Targets Too Easy?" was republished in Trap & Field in December 1995.

    TARGETS TOO EASY.jpg
    Charles and Paul North managed target and trap companies. They recognized the problems facing the sport and often reported on them in Sportsmen's Review. Here's a questionnaire for shooters from 1922.

    1922 QUESTIONAIRE, S.R. 1922-10-14, p.417.jpg

    I'm a concerned life member, however I don't see anyone in a leadership position with the view that there are any problems at all with our sport. So, I don't see them agreeing to meeting with the few of us who may believe some improvements might be beneficial to our sport. With all the developments that have led to the many high and perfect scores, with long shoot-offs, a majority of Delegates, voted in 1996 to reduce the difficulty instead of making it more sporting.

    I see the proposal a waste of time at present.


    HB
     
  44. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Founding Member

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    If harder targets were the answer to the ATA's problems then Bunker Trap would be expanding by leaps and bounds. Most sit empty. Some of us still remember the Wobble Trap event at Vandalia-not a big draw then either. The only event that currently makes even a bit of sense would be an increasing difficulty 16 yd. event throwing 2-5 or 1-4 hole similar targets. No additional cost, more income to the host club and might even bring back some Sporties that left ATA trap. It'll soon give us some idea if wider angle targets are so much in demand. Some of us may also remember the days in PA when Dr. Ollock ran one of those well attended shoots annually with a Calcutta. Maybe it's time the ATA started thinking outside the box!
     
  45. Roger Coveleskie

    Roger Coveleskie Elite Poster Founding Member

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    olealliedawg,
    If and when the ATA does anything to revive the sport. The gun club managers must stick to the rules and settings of the target flight. If they do not nothing will change. Members must also know and demand the rules be followed.
    The other day at a registered shoot, we moved to the second field of doubles, ask to see a pair. One of the squad stopped and said we must raise these targets. I said no. they are already at about 10 feet. only one squad member agreed with me, the club manager was about to go out and raise them. I told him no way.
    The three that were OK with raising them all shot low seventies or less, and the settings were not the problem, ability was. Roger C.
     
  46. Brad's friend (I hope)

    Brad's friend (I hope) A NoBody Founding Member

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    HB:

    That 1922 questionnaire looks like it could have been written by DOC LONGSHOT.

    He is proposing to correct the same things that they attempted in 1922.

    The EC didn't want anything to do with members suggestions back then, so what makes anyone think they would now ?
     
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  47. HistoryBuff

    HistoryBuff Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Yes and these proposals have been brought up from time to time.

    Below are the views of Paul North in 1922. I've see these same points from 96 years ago expressed on this forum. Many sportsmen warned that the increase in high scores was not healthy and Mr. North also supporting barring professionals from winning trophies or money options. Both the Interstate Association and the Amateur Trapshooting Association once had effective rules that protected the amateurs from the professionals.

    Remember, the North family was in the business of selling ammunition, targets and traps. He would not have made his comments if he thought it would be detrimental to the business.

    TRAP MADE EASIER, S.R. May 20, 1922, p.433.jpg

     
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  48. wpt

    wpt Ultra Elite Poster Founding Member

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    HB,
    You SIR are Amazing, amazing I tell you … Please do not give DLS access to this, then only he and Paul North will be the one's advocating changing the targets … There are numerous changes that have to be made beyond target setting to get the Association back on track and where it belongs … Close the Cash Cow Bank, invest in a home grounds … WPT … (YAC) …
     
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