"Ohio Penalty A's" Kicked to the Curb by Ohio --Again?

If Webster had the definition of the old "Ohio Penalty A Shooters"

OH-I-O PEN-AL-TY A SHOOT- ER (noun)

Trapshooting person that only travels to the largest events. Known to sleep in cars prior to a competition. A rare indigenous species that invaded Vandalia, OH and Steubenville, OH, for events such as the OSTA Championship, Grand American Championship, and Tri-State.

Species of shooter that cares little about ability to pay for shooting expenses but shoots anyway.

Specific Sub-species, PA Penalty A's. Similar politics and differing only by geography in trapshooting mecca further east.
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Again for this year's state shoot it appears that Ohio will be abandoning what was once it's proudest base of trapshooters. In years past these were the 870 shooters. I know of families that shared an 870..

Ohio invented a cliche to keep OH Penalty A'a out of the competitions and a new term "previous history." It would be used to trump known ability.

The OH and PA "Penalty A's" never showed up with enough targets to be classified. They only shot the weekends of the Grand and their State Shoot or the state shoot.
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So give me an example!

My friend James stopped shooting for a year. I say "Hey James, what do say we squad up for the weekend at the State Shoot."

"No I don't want to shoot penalty A . Maybe next year. The problem is James had a 95 average. That gets you put with the AA and AAA shooters at the Ohio State Shoot. The new invention is a minimum of 1 yard penalty. Someone will say they don't have AAA shooters at OH. They are still there.
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So what about the Buckeye and the Cardinal Classic? Evidently Jake, Luke and the gang at the CC value the ole penalty A shooters. You wont see that crap at their shoot. See you at the Buckeye. Penalty A shooters welcome!

 

Are you serious with this load of crap? I can tell you as a career 95 ish singles shooter, a 95 average will put you in A class if using a five class (AA) system or a six class (AAA) system. Speaking as a former tournament director for the Ohio State shoot, I had an OBLIGATION to protect the class system for all the shooters that HAD shot the required amount of targets to be classified correctly and fairly. The Ohio State shoot is typically the 3rd or 4th largest shoot in the country. If a shooter is unable to get the required amount of targets to be classified fairly, we don't turn them away. They are allowed to shoot but we damn sure are not going to classify them in C or D with a 95% average on the targets they do have. Are you just trying to invent something to complain about? Jake and Luke can classify their shoots any way they wish, but I can point out some examples of that biting them in the ass. And one more thing, nearly 7 years on the OSTA Board taught me that we should do everything we can to help the smaller clubs attract shooters. Do you think waving target requirements at large shoots would help our smaller clubs draw shooters to their average weekend shoot? Clearly you have no concept of what it takes to run a shoot the size of the Ohio State shoot!

 

Hi Don
Thanks for responding. I would say to let the guy that shoots only limited targets shoot in the penalty A classification as it was done in the past. The thread is not about the b c d abilty shooters. The cliché "penalty A shooters" had plenty of talent. They were put in "A"

Those penalty A shooters are the same shooters that practice regularly at the clubs.

Ohio did not always have the quote "limited one classification bump". The numbers worked best without it did it not? If you showed up with 200 targets with a 95 average you went to "A".

If you have not shoot for a year and had a 95 average you went to "A". "A" was the holding place until you could show you should be in another class.

Added: I think we agree. The guy should be put in "A" not with the AA and AAA shooters.

 

The penalty A rule FG is talking about was used at the OH State Shoots and Vandalia Grands. You still had to shoot the target requirements to shoot lower than penalty A.

 

Penalty A in PA is "A" or lower.

 

Don
What tournament directing experience has shown that putting penalty A shooters in "A" destroys the classification process?

 

Live Oak,
Family Guy posted in his example that his friend James would not shoot at the Ohio State shoot because he did not want to be placed in penalty A even though he had a 95 average on the targets he had shot. So tell me Live Oak, in what class does your tournament directing experience tell you James should be placed? B, C or D because he clearly doesn't wish to shoot A or AA?

 

Don,
I am just a shooter. Not a tournament director. My question was to get your perspective of being a tournament director. You have the ability to see this from a diff angles.

I liked it better when you had to have a set number of targets to be classified. If the number of targets is 1000 and james has 500 then he does not have enough targets to be classified. Kaboom...he goes to "Penalty A". Excluding of course is the known ability rule.

If his pal wants to go to a lower class then he will have to shoot more. You guys added a twist to the known ability rule.

Penalty A should be penalty A.

FYI++ I have been one of those P/A shooters in the past. I helped at my club and practiced handicap the whole year.

 

Are there other states with this format? I cant seem to find one.

I thought it was the same way for everyone? What do I miss?

 

If memory serves me right penalty shooters could not play any options, or be elgible for any added monies, that dedicated shooters paid for.

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant..............................Dr.longshot

 

The classification system for 16 yard shooting at one time was very important. Today with all the categories it is as obsolete as the 870 shooter. At any large ATA shoot the vast majority of shooters are now category shooters.

Category over class is the rule handed down by the ATA to be enforced with NO say by the state association. The ATA is like the Federal government handing down rulings on such matters in most cases. The dumbing down of trap shooting, golf, bowling, are all symptoms of an education ran by elitists and feel good politicly correct types.

If you care to do the research, the OSTA had a penalty B class at the State Shoot and the ATA a penalty A at the Grand.

EZEKIEL 33

 

Ezkiel 33 is correct about the old Penalty at the Ohio State and Grand, at least in 1974. When I joined the ATA in March 1974 I had to have I think 1000 registered 16 yard targets to not shoot pen B at the Ohio State Shoot (within the last 2 years) so I went every where I could and got in my birds. It didn't matter though because I had a B average anyhow when I got to Ohio. I had to have 1500 of each 16's and handicap to not shoot penalty at the grand but not just sure on the number but it was penalty A and penalty 25 yards for sure.

Class was much more important in 1974, I agree with EZ33 that the categories make the class system antiquated and irrelevant.

Don I too have been a tournament director, I've talked about the need to support small clubs, and the need for a saner class system. Triple A is a prime example. As you know Ohio has less than 20 AAA class shooters out of 1700 plus members but yet the hue and cry is for a AAA class. How can the OSTA even consider rewarding such a small percentage of shooters with there own special trophy opportunity. The Ohio shooters that average below 85 far far out number the AAA shooters but get no consideration at all.

What has hurt small Ohio clubs most is the two yard reductions that were handed out a few years back, now that is killing the small clubs. With no money to shoot for at an ATA shoot anymore what is the incentive for those 27 yarders that became 23 yarders to ever shoot another ATA target let alone a small club ATA event?

Small clubs around here are doing fine, they just ain't shooting ATA. When I leave here in a few minutes and go to Cloverdale I expect there will be 15 to 20 squads shooting a 50 bird meat shoot. This happens at one club or the other every Sunday now around here. The small clubs aren't affected at all by what the CC does by waiving penalty yardage. I think it is a good thing and I also think the OSTA should do it. The number of penalty shooters I saw was small, but the vast majority of penalty shooters are SCTP kids that don't stand a chance at winning any class. I know you saw many kids with sub 80 averages that went through the classification line. Put em D, better yet E.

If I had my way the categories would be scrapped all together and the OSTA would go to a 7 or 8 class system and restore trap shooting to what it used to be about. No matter age, sex, race, or politics, ability is what is important. Brad

 

Looking at the OSTA book, there is a minimum of 1 class bump. Go in with a 95 and you shoot with the AA and AAA. That sucks.

 

Don.....please show me anywhere in this thread where James or anyone else said a penalty A shooter should shoot anywhere else but A. James would have shot penalty A. Just not the OSTA's definition of penalty A, which moves James up to the AA and AAA shooters.

Please explain this.

 

Think maybe your insistence on referring to "Penalty" as "Penalty A" is confusing the issue? When penalty is one class above your regular class, it makes no sense to call it Penalty A. Calling someone a "Penalty A" shooter at a shoot that does not use Class A as its penalty class makes no sense. It was fine back in the day when A was actually the penalty, but that's gone there now.

All that does is lead to confusing statements as ""No I don't want to shoot penalty A . Maybe next year. The problem is James had a 95 average."

 

Family Guy,
I'd be happy to show you! In your original post above: in the section you labeled "page 2" the last paragraph starts with........wait for it........."No I don't want to shoot penalty A."

Just so I understand correctly, you feel it's okay for any shooter with less than the required amount of targets to be placed in penalty A. So it's okay for a guy with 300 singles targets and an average of 85 on those targets to be placed in penalty A (an 85 average would be D class). But if a shooter does not have the required amount of targets but does have a 95 average on a few hundred targets, no penalty just leave them in class A? So it's a real penalty only to those shooters that have averages less than 94 to 97 on fewer than the required amount of targets. Interesting.


Brad,
You and I made certain that AAA class never saw the light of day in Ohio while we were on the Board. I too have heard through the grapevine that the current Board may institute the AAA class for Ohio State shoot. There is nothing either one of us can do about the actions of the current group in charge, we had our time. If they are hell bent to add another class to singles and doubles I would much rather it be a "hunter class", a class for any shooters that haven't met the target requirements or an "E class" as you and I suggested many years ago. I agree that the ATA severely hurt the attendance at small clubs by handing out 4 yard reductions to most shooters. The ATA was trying to increase attendance at their large shoots without thinking about the impact on the smaller ones. Not a decision you or I would have made, but again, it wasn't our call to make.

I certainly do not agree that eliminating minimum target requirements would have no impact on smaller clubs and shoots, and I know you don't really believe it either. You lead the charge to elimate the "targets only" classification at the Ohio State shoot. I heard you tell many shooters to "get your targets in just like I had to when I started". And finally, yes you were a tournament director. In my opinion, you were one of, if not the best tournament director to ever run an ATA shoot. But what made you the best was your tough love. I NEVER saw you break a rule, not even bend one. Rules were rules to you, not guidelines. The shooters always knew exactly where you stood on any issue, no grey areas. All they had to do was read the rule book or shoot program. If posters on this thread want to avoid penalty classification they need only get in the required number of targets. If they only shot 100 singles at each CC shoot this season they would have enough for the following years to avoid penalty class.

Flame away guys, I got nothing else to do until the Masters golf coverage starts this afternoon!

 

Answer: Yes !

Strange wording agreed. Penalty A used to be the holding area in Ohio until you could show by shooting more targets that you could be moved lower. B C D etc.

Agreed the word penalty should never had been used. Classifiers have trumped the known ability rule by using a new invention called "limited history."

It is our new invention in Ohio to bump someone to shoot with the AA and AAA shooters that is what needs to be avoided. We have chased one of our groups to the curb.

That is correct Bat, but in the eyes of Ohio we have not penalized him enough. We invented the new saying "minimum bump of 1 classification. James shoots against Harlan in his return to shooting.

For the purpose of wording or semantics why call it Penalty A? Ohio is Penalty AA or AAA. That is where the AA and AAA shooters are.

Agreed....If we are so proud of our rule lets just call Ohio's invention, Penalty AAA.

 

Don I hope you don't mean to chase the Ohio Penalty A shooters from the Ohio Shoot on a new rule that should be called Penalty AA.

Let us know how that works out.

 

Odds of finding this type classification at another state shoot.

O %

 

Jordan Speith just teed off so I will try to keep this quick.

Family Guy, are you saying there is a group of Ohio shooters that don't shoot enough targets to avoid the penalty, feel they could be competitive and possibly win if left in class A, but they refuse to come out and play if they have to shoot against the best Ohio singles shooters? Remember, at the state shoot, residents don't have to beat Harlan to win their class. Last time I checked Harlan was still a resident of Kansas. So these shooters you speak of are seeking protection from shooting against fellows like Pat McCarthy and Joe Charnigo (a couple great Ohio All Americans) in order to win a singles trophy at the Ohio State shoot?

 

More important - - Ohio used to be inundated with blue collar shooters that only shot the 2 biggest weekends because they could only afford the 2 biggest weekends. The were called by the name "The Ohio Penalty A's".

These were the Ohio weekend shooters.

The singles was the shoot they did mostly as the warm up for the handicap. 2 days gave them a reason to drive and sleep in the car. The OH Penalty A's were proud that they could shoot A without working hard at it and worked on handicap only. It was all the blue collar shooter could afford. They filled Vandalia. The PA Penalty A's were the same. Mostly they came from the mills.

How did we ever got to the point where we felt a penalty A shooter was not penalized enough and expect him to play our game. No other state does this. Nor should they.

Like I said before, Jake and Luke at the CC would never put up a hurdle like this for their customer.

 

LOL Way too funny.

You guys should have a special OSTA shoot day called "OHIO PENALTY AA DAY"

Hold on so funny I think I peed. lol

 

Live Oak,
Unlike a few here, I never want to chase any shooters away. I am extremely curious as to this "new rule" you speak of that should be called penalty AA? Perhaps the current OSTA BOD has enacted a new rule for the 2016 Ohio State shoot that I am not aware of? Here is word for word the rule from the 2015 Ohio State shoot program;

Page 13 section D. TARGET REQUIREMENTS: Shot during period between September 1, 2013 & June 26, 2015.

16-yard - 1000 registered: Penalty B (min. one class move up with min. class B).

So a shooter has nearly two years to accumulate 1000 targets. Just for giggles I found a copy of the 2012 Ohio State shoot program. Surprise, surprise! The rule was exactly the same then. So do you still want me to "let us know how that works out"?

 

I do need to apologize for one thing from above. I mis-spelled Jordan Spieth's name in post # 20. Sorry!

 

In 1968 when I joined the ATA I had to have 750 Singles and 750 Handicap targets, 500 doubles targets to get a Permanent card, which entitled me to shoot w/o penalty.
Then they changed that rule to 1000 of each, and then changed it again to 1500 of each, which was the way the ATA raised targets sold, to fatten their pockets.

The ATA has done so many things to hurt the sport, geared it to shooters with deep pockets.

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant...............................Dr.longshot

 

According to the 2014 program the minimum is 1000 targets. Then comes the catch. There is a minimum of one class bump. The minimum class is B. That is where the limited previous history invention comes into play.

James shows up with a 95 average having only a few hundred targets. He is put in Class AA. OH does not have a AAA so he shoots with the AA and AAA shooters.

I will rephrase from imply we are trying to fool the shooters by putting the Class B word out there instead of A as I misstated.

Rather than being a Penalty B or Penalty A it is Penalty AA.

If we think having a Penalty AA is so great lets put it on the cover of the OSTA program. Don, I have no doubt the rule was changed or manipulated since your presidency but PENALTY AA IS BULLSHIT!

We have time to get this right!

 

OK, so this travesty apparently went like this:

Back in your good old days of Penalty A, the B,C, and D shooters not meeting the target requirements shot in penalty A. The A and AA shooters not meeting the requirements were not penalized at all. AS far as I'm concerned that was a pretty common thing at a large shoot, no big deal.

Now they have a penalty of a 1 class bump, with apparently a minimum of B (I'm basing this on your post). The C & D shooter will now shoot in B. That seems ok to me, certainly better for the C&D shooters then in the glory days of Penalty A. Now the B guys shoot A, same as back in your good old days, so no big deal there. And now the A guys get bumped a class, when they had no penalty at all before. I have no problem with that either. Seems fair. Only the AA guys get no penalty, and that is simply because they are already in the highest class at that shoot, and therefore could not possibly be sandbagging. Certainly isn't the end of the world, not even BS as you describe it.

The fact is they are both reasonable methods to use. Accept that some have differing opinions on what the penalty classification is meant to accomplish.

 

Wisconsin does this. A couple of years ago after a year of not shooting any registered targets I went to their shoot with a few hundred targets and an AA average. I was placed in AAA as per the program at the time. I knew what class I would be shooting before the shoot. Didn't stop me from shooting and I don't think it should stop anyone else either.

 

Iowa tall-tale LOL.

Bet you dollars to eggs WI does not have penalty AAA classification. Unless you were AAA previously.

 

Here is WI policy from 2011 and at quick glance 2015 was also the same.



It does appear, those with averages at or above the penalty will be penalized a minimum of 1 class. It seems (MEN) as though it would have the meaning of, if you were a new shooter in 2011 and had 400 2011 targets at a AA average you could be put into the AAA class. Of course it could also mean if you had at or above the penalty (A) average (maybe a lone 100 score) you would be shooting AA (1 class above penalty) even though it was a AAA average on what ever the amount of targets may have been shot below the minimum required.

All in how the person working the classification comprehends the words written. I wouldn't discount the story IOWA guy relayed, though it may have been in error.

Here is CA 2015.


Here is CO 2014.

 

Jersey. That would be one bet you would lose. I wish I still had my classification receipt to prove it to you but I don't. The program was clear...insufficient target count - one class bump. And I have never been AAA. My average fluctuates between 95-97.

 

If you expect to win either class without the ability to shoot 100 and 200's stay home!

 

Dawg we had that chat....

"A" You are shooting against other "A" shooters. You are using your bullets. They are using their bullets.

AA-AAA combined -- is a proxy war. You are using your bullets that you have to pay for. They are using another organization's bullets that you help pay for.

And your post 100's and 200's is misleading.

State shoot OH "A" guessing a 250 bird run.

State shoot OH "AA-AAA" could be 500 bird run.

The weekend warriors of OH and PA were the group of shooters that made Vandalia great. Few of the OSTA officers even care now.

 

Bat's summary is in-line with op's post about Ohio's Penalty A's kicked to the curb

If James was a shooter registered 3 weekends a year he has to shoot with the AA shooters at the OH State Shoot.....I wouldn't go either . Cardinal Classic or Fall Grand in New York. Get rid of the limited history crap.

Maybe this james example will shoot again. Ohio might have lost a ATA shooter.

Should be in penalty A.

 

Unintended consequences caused greedy board members that know little about the history of their sport.

 

Man, the comprehension here is sad.

OH doesn't have "Penalty A", "Penalty AA" or a "Penalty any class". They have a penalty of one class over your normal class, which as I pointed out is certainly fair. They do impose a minimum penalty of "B", so a D shooter might get bumped 2 classes. That's better than D shooters getting bumped 3 classes which is what a lot of you seem to want like under the old method.

Under this method, good old A shooter James didn't get his targets in and he is crying because he gets bumped one class, but you have no problem with a D shooter getting bumped up 3 classes under the old method?

I have no problem with a large shoot setting minimum penalty at A either, it serves a purpose. I just don't get the crying about it when you don't get the one that is best for you. There are trade-offs either way.

 

That is in your opinion but the post had little to do with fairness. It has more to do with chasing away the shooters that used to be called "The OH Penalty A Shooters". You are not one of them right?

Semantics and distortion on your part or lack of comprehension. The penalty category was a holding area where you were put until you could prove you needed a lower class. You had to have a certain amount of targets to be classified. If it were 1000 it was 1000. There was no "limited history invention." You had the targets or not. OH has added a twist of the known ability rule.

Not sure James was crying. Might leave trap shooting. The blue collar shooters only shoot 2 or 3 big shoots a year. He will shoot somewhere else. The Buckeye or not at all.

That was a tradition and thing you wore on your sleeve if you got to that point as a blue collar penalty A shooter in OH. You would say, " I can handle the P-A I will shoot practice for the big money" and they showed up at Vandalia by the thousands. Again, you are not being bumped up. You shoot more to work down.

Some folk have fought for easier targets as it was best for them. I am fighting for a breed of shooter that is near extinct.

The blue collar shooter from OH and PA was the backbone of trapshooting.

They were also called the weekend warriors in OH and PA.

 

FG, since you are not talking about fairness at all, and it's all nostalgia, fine. I'll agree, there is no more "Ohio Penalty A" shooter since there is no such thing as Penalty A anymore at that shoot. I agree, that's a fact. I was only talking about what's fair and not worth crying about, but I do understand the nostalgia viewpoint. No I was not one of them, didn't live there and wasn't Penalty A.

 

Bat,
The argument you are missing or where I have failed.

You are missing a social value / badge that was attached to the name and culture that was kicked aside. The OH and PA shooters still view registered trapshooting as an after thought. In NW Ohio this week in bad weather there were 2 meat shoots as big as a some chain shoots. No ATA cards needed. Mostly blue collar shooters.

The Weekend Warrior / Penalty A shooter reached a culture reward by bragging about being able to practice handicap all year. They spent plenty of money at the local club. Practicing their yardage. The only yardage they wanted was yardage earned. They drove up the big pots.

There is no Penalty A classification at the Ohio State Shoot this year. And you wont see 1000 more weekend warriors on Saturday. That is because they have been kicked to the curb.

There will never be a more passionate group of shooters. Fewer weekend warriors and no one gives a rat's ass.

 

A good business owner spends the majority of his time finding new customers. The OSTA has found a way to dispose of a whole group.

I am one of those devalued weekend warriors. I may be at the Buckeye.....wont shoot the weekend at the state.

 

Maybe we should be more concerned about the C and D shooters that have enough targets to shoot their class then seem to get really hot and shoot scores good enough to win A? If not for these types no penalty would be needed. With the present target settings it takes 100 to win anything anyhow. So what really does class matter?

 

The PENALTY A shooters are not and have not been pushed to the CURB, the Penalty Shooters cannot play the money or get any added money, and I believe they cannot receive any Trophys, in any class. This was the original set up.

What the ATA needs to do is go back to the original guide lines as were set in 1968. 750 sgls., 750 Hdcps, 500 doubles to get your Permanent Card. To enter any State Shoots, you must have enough targets for a Permanent Card.

Temporary card allows you/them to shoot targets to get a permanent Card.

Presently Senior shooters target requirements are waived, for Sgls, Hndcp,and Doubles

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant.................................Dr.longshot

 

Doc - - wrong - wrong and wrong.

Penalty shooters in OH can play the money. They can win their classification.

It is relatively new rule- - again doc you are wrong. And not that I care too much. Don't have dog in the fight.

Doc this is not the 70's. Get some medicine.

 

Hey before you say I am wrong look at the Programs in 1968, Penalty A is a long time penalty, If you have an 16yd avg, of OVER 94% you are in A class, you/they are not kicked to the curb. The qualifiers? Classification committee look at your/their Handicap averages, this also carries some weight in Classification.

That Penalty of not being allowed to playing the money if you did not have enough targets used to be the rule, I do believe the total target count of 1,000 should be reduced to 750 Targets like it used to be.

Raising Target shot requirements like the ATA has done/ and States following Suit is/was a mistake in my belief. Just helps the Shooters w/deep pockets, not your average day to day shooter.

Another was 3,000 sgls & Hdcp to get on the All American Team, for deep pocket shooters. The ATA is Losing Target Shooters Base, that is where they make their money, SHOOTER BASE. Look how low membership has dropped in the last 10 years.

Your above posts we only a Partial Post, on my Threads, Use all or don't use at all, Like Johnny Cochran OJ's, if it on't fit don,t convict

The only thing I feel is wrong is the 1,000 targets in a current Target Year, not in the last 3 Years total of 1,000.

Re-Read my First 2 Lines of my thread (Used to be)


Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant.....................................Dr.longshot

 

Doc....update some meds or something. You were talking about the present:

Now you are talking about 1968. Which is it doc?

 

Doc.....that is the kicking to the curb of the "Penalty A Shooter".

 

The ATA has made it more difficult for the average shooter. Why put hurdles up?

 

Robb - you asked.

Not true. "AA" and "AAA" the number could be 500 straight.

In "A" the shooters are using shells they bought. In "AA" and "AAA" category at OH you are shooting against shooters that do not have to pay for their shells. Some don't pay for their guns.

So why would the old blue collar "Penalty A" shooter enter the shoot? He won't. The OSTA doesn't care.

 

^ the same score has won both A and AA classes in the singles championship 3 out of the last 5 years.

Ill be shooting penalty this year and it isnt stopping me from coming down to shoot.

In all reality you need to be capable of breaking 200 to expect to have a chance to win a singles event this size regardless if you're in A,AA or AAA

 

Not counting the overtime targets. And do not forget the AA is with the AAA at Ohio.

Again you are way off base. If you want to compete with the pros that are given free shells you must have the resources to compete with someone the can break 500 straight that is getting shells for free.

Thousands of those we once called the "Penalty A" shooters left years ago.

When "Penalty A" was "Penalty A" we had a thousand more shooters on the weekends in OH. Everyone was put in "Penalty A" until you could prove you should be elsewhere. Why do we need all those blue collar shooters on the weekends anyway? Jake and Luke at the CC get it. See you at the Buckeye. The old penalty A shooters welcome.

 

You are correct.

 

Ditto