just wondering- pull vs release triggers

Why people shooting pull trigger guns accept to compete against release trigger people knowing that the release trigger is far superior to pull trigger Faster firing time which translate in shorter breaks and shorter leads?
They should compete in two separate division.! Am I wrong?

 

I'm a little surprised range insurance policies allow release triggers. I suspect carriers don't know they're being used.

 

I have seen more trap houses shot with 2lb pull triggers.

 

Are you sure you posted this on the right site ?

 

artur,
Maybe we should not let Mod. 12 shooters compete with any of the newer guns. They have a slow hammer fall. How long have you been shooting trap? Lock time is all in your head. After you have shot a gun a few times it does not mater any more. Your brain compensates for it. Roger C.

 

Roger, I agree with you 100%

 

How about when shooting handicap 27 y??

 

I'v shot a release since the early 70s including double release for doubles. Just a matter of brain getting used to it. If i could shoot pull without flinching i would !

 

rookie I never flinch but I find a book on internet that suggest how to cure trigger freeze and flinching.
Google: "curing trigger freeze and flinching book" It may help you to understand flinching.
Going back to the thread, what do you think about release and pull? It is fair to compete in one division?

 

Tried R/P but flich on second shot of all things. Thanks for info

 

I have Model 12's up the Kazoo, got factory pull, Timney Speed Locks, Pull / release, release, more spares (6) than I will probably ever need, it all happens so fast its hard to tell any difference between any of them ... I tried one of those Magical Gold Triggers in my Perazzi, again it all happens so fast its difficult to tell if there is any major difference ... If you are talking milliseconds the mind will make the adjustments for you sooner or later, probably never for some people (if you read the books) ... The people who print those books do so to make money off of the sales, if you believe it, it becomes true ... Now the speed of the shotgun shell is a whole other story, that book will be coming out soon ... Speed of mounting the gun is another book coming out in paper back and hard cover ... Good God where do I come up with this stuff ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Everyone has the right to shoot release or pull trigger. If you believe the release trigger is superior and refuse to shoot one in competition then you must enjoy being first loser.

There are many others who have tried release and cannot master the principle. Like the late, great Frank Little often said "if you can't pull one or release a trigger it might be best to take up fishing".

 

Oleo, why not just keep the two triggers apart and make two separate divisions? Otherwise the release will be always in advantage over the pull.and is not fair.! IMO

 

There's plenty of shooters with release triggers who still stink. What class do you propose we place them in?

 

Artur,
This is something you must make your own decision on. The speed of the hammer fall is of no consequences the mind will take up any slack that you inject into the firing sequence. Do not think about it just shoot and have fun.
Do not mention this to the ATA. They may take it seriously and add more classes and AA points to our game.
Roger C.

 

If they are going to separate the release trigger users from the pull trigger users (make more class's) then they should do the same thing with those who shoot #8's and # 7 1/2's (new and or reloads) to make it totally fair ... Then have 1 OZ classes that do not have to shoot against those 1 1/8 th Oz shooters , better yet each age has to shoot against only those who are the same age or within a few months any way so there is no advantage to any one for better, faster eye, hand co ordination ... Let's not forget the lefty's and righty's, they have rights also ( no pun intended ) ... Yep, I can see this working kind of on the same level as moving to Sparta, Ill from Ohio ... Lets not forget the smokers/non smokers ... I'm not really sure but maybe he is on to something here ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Spears should not be allowed they are way to fast, and you can get them in release pull by pushing the button ...

 

Artur,
I reread your post. When you pull a trigger on a shot gun the spring is already cocked. It is not a trigger pull and fire. The difference is very minimal between a release and a pull trigger. Are you new to shooting guns? Roger C.

 

Before i started to flich i broke just as many 100 straights with pull as release. Now this was many moons ago. Just worry about getting your confidence level up to be the best you can, get that negative junk out of your mind.

 

Artur, i beg of you, please don't ask for a graph between release vs pull triggers.

 

I think we do need a graph! LOL!!!

 

Definitely a graph. It's well known that pull triggers result in tighter groups at 40 yards. We definitely need a scatterplot graph to prove it.

 

YES! I concur, we need a graph

 

Graph! Graph! Graph!

 

Some guns there may be a fraction of a second difference between a pull and a release, but on some guns like a Ljutic, I am not sure that there is any difference. The same movement has to occur in order to let the hammer drop. The hammer drops the same distance also. The only difference is the release lever hooks over a piece of the hammer versus the trigger sitting in a grove at the bottom of the hammer. Either way to let the hammer drop it has to slide the same distance.

 

Release is giving faster firing than pull. More than that pull encounters resistance when breaks which produces flinching( among other reasons for it) for a lot of people if they are wrong technically.
Just read the book and you will see what causes the trigger freeze and flinching and how can be eliminated on the spot.
Roger, using same load by everybody is not a bad idea. There is a difference between 600 pellets and 400 pellets?
Some can handle 1 1/8 load some don't. The middle way should be the answer.

 

If everyone used the same load then shouldn't everyone use the same gun?
How about everyone have the same vest or pouch or hat and same color glasses?
How about same model car or truck with sane color too?

The difference between 400 pellets and 600 pellets is 200 pellets!

 

The difference between 400 pellets and 600 pellets is 200 pellets!

200 is not enough? It can make a difference.Right?

 

.

Artur,

A 1 ounce load of #7-1/2 shot has 350 pellets
A 1-1/8 ounce load has 394 pellets
Difference of 44 pellets

A 1 ounce load of #8 shot has 410 pellets
A 1-1/8 ounce load has 461 pellets
Difference of 51 pellets

Doesn't matter what gauge, an ounce is an ounce.
Doesn't matter whether the load is fired from a gun with a release trigger or a pull trigger.
A microsecond will make NO noticeable difference.

Really!

 

Sounds like we need NASA to solve this one...

 

We don't need NASA only common sense .

Considering that it takes 3 pallets to break a target the extra 44 pallets can give you 14 more chances to hit the target!

The faster firing of the release can make a difference and gives advantage when shooting handicap!

The only thing need to be done is to recognize it and reconsider the classification. Simple.

 

artur,
You are kicking a dead horse. The ATA will never consider your suggestions. I doubt if many ATA shooter will either.
Roger C.

 

People that have stickers on there gun should have a seperate class depending on the size of there stickers and there shoe size . Dam this winter is getting long.

 

The only people that can ask for two separate categories of classification are the pull people competing against
the much superior release trigger system. What is wrong to shoot in two categories, anyway and the best to win based on his abilities and not because of superior technicality . I'm talking about release.
This is a debate and nothing else. I would be curious to know why people tolerate the situation..

 

It seems long past the time for an "Outlaw Classification" .....

If you can stand to shoot 100 Federal Premium Turkey Loads, you are welcome to my lunch money ..... way more than someone who can shoot 500 per day in "preparation" prior to a shoot to take my lunch money ..... using free shells and a "promotional shotgun" with who cares what kind of "trigger" .....

 

Because it's a non issue. Your using this issue as an excuse. If you don't flinch don't shoot one. I think you would get more people acknowledging your interest on this subject if you posted this on the other site.
Do you think Dan B would have shot a release if he could have set more records?

 

It's not fully a dead issue, as the ISSF doesn't allow release triggers.

 

Neither can the ISSF find the deodorant aisle in the supermarket. Who cares if a few stinky foreigners can't understand release triggers.

FYI, Don Haldeman, former Gold Medal Olympic Trap winner shot release.

 

They understand them, just fine. Remember, they shoot better than us.

 

Surely better than you. Don't include me in your "us"! With all that money in the Grand American Handicap event you'd think they'd all clamor to enter-not, since they'd rather shoot for ribbons and fake gold coins.

 

Europeans shoot far, far, far better than you. You're not anywhere close to their league. When you medal in a real event like a World Cup, where all the best shooters show up, you can brag about how good you think you are.

If you're as good as you say you are, you would of course want to put that talent to the betterment of your country and win a Gold for the USA.

 

I shot against a few of your special Europeans in the live bird ring. Sometimes they beat me and in others I beat them. I suppose you're not aware you how popular live bird shooting in some European countries. Then again, oh ye of so little actual shooting experience wouldn't know much about that.

Nor run along son, your backyard sparrow feeder is empty!

 

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU'VE DONE IN OTHER EVENTS EXCEPT THE ONES YOU'RE TOO SCARED TO SHOOT IN!!!!!!!

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SYLLOGISTICALLY PROVE YOU'RE A GOOD SHOOTER OR CAN COMPETE WITH THE BIG TALENT.

If you're trying to make the argument that you're as good as an Olympian, join our Olympic team, and win Gold for the U.S.

It's that simple. That's the only thing that proves your as good as Olympian. Anything else from you is just B.S., chickening out, and dodging.

 

I have little desire to shoot for pink ribbons and fake coins at 70 yo while I admire your attempts to break your first 25 straight Trap with a tricked out Mossberg 500. Of course, I've already shot off with and beat one Olympic gold medal winner and mighty fine individual. You keep working up to Elmer Fudd.

That said, go feed your sparrows!

 

"I have little desire to shoot for pink ribbons and fake coins"
Now I know why the USA did not qualified for two Olympics in row for bunker because has no motivation. That makes sense.
Oleo, when you can't get the grapes you say that are sour anyway., why to have them,.right?
Those who you shot pigeons in Europe have they smell good?
One more thing, the deodorants came to America from Europe, Chanel was the first ones.
Oleo, pull or release?

 

You asked if your wrong, yes your 100% wrong and don't know what a firearm lock time means. It has nothing to do with a release vs pull, it has all to do with the time the sear disengages the hammer and the primer igniting. You cannot change the lock time by adding a release hook.

 

That is almost true...kinda. On a release the hammer disengages from the sear when you pull the trigger. It then has a shorter distance to travel to hit the firing pin.

 

Really, by maybe .005-.010 closer the hammer to the firing pin? If the hammer jumps that much for the secondary set, it's a pos release trigger install.

 

But closer it is. I have all mine fall a little further. I like the louder click. A shorter distance is shorter.

 

"A shorter distance is shorter."

That translates in shorter breaks and leads from the handicap lines.More chances to hit the target.!

 

If release triggers offer such a great advantage, why don't you get one and beat up all those unsuspecting pull trigger shooters! The secret is out now, after being kept almost 100 years. Thanks big mouth!

 

arturo,

If european shooters are much better than the American shooters, why did we have to save their asses two times? The American GI's saved them, why do you not remember that? Roger C.

 

Huh?

 

smokin357, The American GI's fought two wars to keep European citizens free from being enslaved by Germany. He tells us we can not shoot as good as them. B.S. Roger C.

 

Roger, Got rest in peace all the American heroes!

This is sport nothing else, regarding the way the American shooters are trained for Olympics.

Unfortunately, despite the fact that the USA has a huge potential to be the best on the Olympic arena , bunker shooting, are not. Oleo statement "I have little desire to shoot for pink ribbons and fake coins " it may be one of the reasons.

That's all.

 

Artur, I believe you are saying that it is easier/quicker to release a trigger then to pull a trigger and a release is therefore superior. However, there are fast release triggers and slow release triggers just as there are light pull triggers and heavy pull triggers. A fast release trigger may release at 40 oz. and slow release at 20 oz. Lets just assume that our set on the release is 6 lbs. or 96 oz. which means the on the fast release 56 oz. of pressure is released before the hammer falls and the slow release requires that 76 oz. of pressure must be released. Now you are saying a 2 lb. or 32 oz. pull trigger is slower than a fast release requiring 56 oz. or a slow release of 76 oz. to be release?
One other minor and irrelevant point is that on most if not all release trigger designs I have seen is that when the trigger is set the hook pulls the hammer out of the sear notch so it is has actually fractional farther to fall.
Also, if technical superiority determined winners how would a Krieghoff shooter ever beat a Perazzi shooter? Tom

 

The difference is here:

have you ever tied a spring and somehow that spring jumped off from the tie?

How fast that happens? No human reaction can't match that!

The same phenomenon happens when the trigger is released.

Mechanic action vs human neuro-reflex.

The late Don Haldeman, who won the gold medal for Olympic Trap in the 1976 Montreal Olympics, shot a release/pull in his Krieghoff from memory. He figured it was the fastest way of getting off two shots..
The other competitors shot pull trigger.
I don't want to minimize his merit of winning the Olympics but the ignorance of the ISSF allowed him to use a such setting.
What is the difference? release-pull( Don) is less that pull-release-pull .In bunker the second shot can save your ass.if you shoot it very fast.

 

My good friend Brendan, a fellow trapshooter, acquired a severe flinch a few years ago. I suggested he switch to release, he immediately took up my suggestion, the flinch went away and Brendan really stepped up his game.

That said, Brendan makes periodic visits to the old country (obviously Ireland) and brings along his Krieghoff K-80 for a little shooting with his buddies. He's always amazed how many of his friends over there also flinch badly too but don't realize there's a cure. I suppose what this means is they can't read Artur's book, don't have qualified gunsmiths to perform the operation or the Europeans are too backward (many are also ignorant of the deodorant aisle location in a supermarket) to acquire the fix.

So, the ISSF, believing they got their asses kicked by a better American shooter because he shot release/pull trigger, had to do something to appease their inferior wannabees and banned release triggers. All this because their so-call gunsmiths weren't good enough to copy an American made product (not all, because Krieghoff offered a factory release on their guns from the outset).

 

I notice Artur fails to mention the ISSF doesn't believe funny ribs and even funnier stocks don't require banning. I presume the Europeans supposed technological superiority sticks to woodworking but fails mechanics. The ISSF would likely have winked at release triggers but banned funny stocks if the Americans kicked their stinky butts using one first.

 

Oleo,just enjoy your retirement! Hide you ignorance and don't make full of your self here.
If you read "CURING TRIGGER FREEZE AND FLINCHING`", which is not my book, you will understand why trigger freeze occurs and also you will understand that release won't cure flinching.
What the release does eliminates the physical jerk of the gun but not the cause of the flinching.!!
Using a release is like hiding the dust under the carpet! Many people shooting release flinches also.
If folks are fine with that, it's OK if not read the book and you will understand that you don't need a release to fix flinching.
The book tells you why you flinch and what's going wrong with your shooting ending up with the flinch.
You will learn things that nobody will tell you for sure. ... and guess what, is written by a panel of European coaches.as I understood.

Reading will cut your ignorance for sure.

 

In case anyone has not noticed artur codrea is feeding off of the responses and nothing anyone can say or do will be sufficient to prove him wrong ... I am really surprised he has not put together and posted a few charts and graphs to support his position and reasoning ... He bring in other shooting venues as well as other country's to try and convince people who have been in and around the shooting sports for years and years ... There comes a time you just have to walk away and go and talk to the toaster to get a more reasonable response and logical answers ... He is obviously on the wrong site and will continue with his nonsense until people smarten up and quit responding to him and the points he continues trying to get across ... If anyone wants me I will be in the kitchen talking to the Toaster ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

artur, you have no record of ever shooting American trap, yet, speak of knowing something about shooting from the 27 yd. line. I'd safely say you know as much about trapshooting and release triggers as I do of soccer. If I posted on a soccer website about something I know nothing about I'm sure I'd be lambasted by others very much in the know. Maybe you should find a bunker site and present your views where you'll find an interested audience. Us lowly, inferior trapshooters could care less.

 

WPT, is only a forum, life is too short to not enjoy it.

I tell you my personal opinions and what I read. No charts and graphs only common sense.!

 

Artur, what does tying a spring with a string have to do with anything? When my Perazzi hammer spring is released from compression it reacts in the same way whether it is via a pull trigger or a release trigger. Was your post #58 your answer to my question, is a 2 lbs./32 oz. pull slower then a 56 oz. or 76 oz. release? If you could would you please enlighten me with a yes or no answer. Thanks in advance. Tom

 

Tom live with your believe. Any setup is subjective and is not a rule!
Anyway I did not hear anybody using a release complaining how slow it is comparing to a a pull trigger..

 

I haven't heard anyone complain how slow a pull trigger is since 1974 ... Well wait there was this one guy "Artur Codrea" but that was many years ago ... I watched him shoot the trap house a few times, I think he quit shooting and moved to Belize or someplace like that ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Yu're right he moved to Belize

 

More gibberish. Also I believe it is "belief".

 

You got it, my mistake .

Going back to the OP and what Don Halderman said about release / pull setup for doubles " the fastest way of getting two shots" do you still arguing that there is not a difference between pull and release trigger?
Pull-release-pull vs release-pull?

 

Yup, and release/release is the slowest method for getting off two shots for me. The moral to the story is shoot what you like!

 

oleo: "The moral to the story is shoot what you like!" that's true.

What is immoral is to put me , a pull-pull, shooter in the same bowl with a release- pull shooter when we compete.

It is not fair and unbalanced.

 

artur, We compete on an equal basis in all shooting sports. How can we try to tell shooters what equipment they must use. That will not work to well in a free society. Use what you feel comfortable with and get proficent with your choice.
Shoot well and often and enjoy what you do. Many times trying to level a playing field is not good for the sport or the competitors. Roger C.

 

Reading the postings by Artur Codrea, I can see why there are so many problems in the world today ... Now, its immoral to make him shoot against a shooter that does not have or use the same equipment ..? This guy is a walking, talking joke who is obviously trying to stir the pot (while he smokes some ) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Why to compete against somebody that beats me from the start by having a superior setup? Where is the logic?
The ATA should create two categories to make the competition fair.
What is wrong with that?

 

If what your using is 'inferior' then learn to shoot a release if there so great.

 

It is not the equipment that is beating you it is somebody with more skill, luck, experience. Most of the top shooters could use a H&R Topper and win. I shoot a pull trigger and never felt handicapped by it. Picked up 4.5 yards last season and and average over 97.5% on singles with my wore out BT99.
I guess everyone needs something to use as an excuse why they can't win.

 

Then you just need to shoot your targets closer to the box than the other guys!
Duh!, Arturo.
That will solve your perceived problem.

 

"Then you just need to shoot your targets closer to the box than the other guys!
Duh!, Arturo.
That will solve your perceived problem."

Even so you release guys you are faster when you shoot the box

 

Dense.
Fog.
Fencepost.
Or as WPT says," Toaster."

 

I guess ATA should have equipment inspection. Let's see how many different classes, left hand, right hand, pull trigger release trigger, shooter's age, men class, women class, pump gun class, then classes for cost of shotgun, why should I use a bt-99 against a kriegoff, Done this way, you would only have one or 2 shooters in each class. Oh boy, everyone wins.

 

It worked well in Skeet. Look at their how their attendance numbers have soared over the last 20 years. I'm surprised the EC has not picked up on their fantastic direction and copied it. They must be asleep at the wheel. Roger C.

 

Got a realese in my 90t hpar . getting one tomorrow in my 99 ,release kept me in the game.

 

"Got a realese in my 90t hpar . getting one tomorrow in my 99 ,release kept me in the game"

What do you mean by saying" release kept me in the game"?.

 

The toaster speaks.

 

After a lotta years of shooting I began to flinch,using the realese trigger stopped it.

 

Petetgun,What was your flinch cause ?

Oleo, I bet you don't know how to use a flatware in a restaurant.if you go to Europe.

They teach you for free

 

Does that mean the French are no longer crapping on the steps into their buildings?

 

The "ATA" tried to "protect" some "Big Dogs", that couldn't/wouldn't use a "release trigger", by adding a "flinch" to the "Mulligan List" ..... With the current "miss-and-out" competition the "ATA" has created, "they" stay busy protecting their Idols.

It is asinine for someone to protest the use of "release triggers" and make "claims" there are "other cures", without consulting the "graph/chart pro" to provide the proper "full color chart/graph" to educate the unwashed masses .....

 

"Does that mean the French are no longer crapping on the steps into their buildings?"

No, that means you have to educate your self when you go into civilized World.

 

I was standing down wind of a French girl at WalMart, she smelled like the door of the head on a bloody Tuna boat ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT have you ever been in a North Georgia pub filled up with native rednecks Saturday evening ?
That you have to experience and you will marry that French girl on a split of second.

 

I knew this was a fishing trip from the first post so the only thing I was hoping for was a graph from the mastergrapher but I do have a question for the OP'er

What name or words did you mix up to get "artur codre"

Trying to figure that out has been a lot more fun than reading about how a "release" trigger is an advantage over pull triggers.

Lets touch the leader so we can throw this one back and call it a day huh?

With ALL the other contraptions available today, and people use them all to try and break better scores, IF the release was better EVERYONE would be using one.

DUH! Get better bait next time.

 

Artur Codre - 10 letters

Lynn Gipson- 10 letters

Could it be? No, surely not.... Or?

 

I dont know what made me flinch,but anybody that shoots trap knows its common.What I do know what stops it,and I realy dont over thinking it makes a whole hell of lotta sense,

 

"Artur" is a cognate to the common male given name Arthur ..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artur

"Codrea" ..... "Codrea's Law" ..... “anyone who can’t be trusted with a gun can’t be trusted without a custodian.” ..... https://definithing.com/codreas-law/

 

User1 now I know where my name come from. Thanks.

Petetgun , you are lucky because release won't physically eliminate every type of cause .

Many are flinching big time with a release . For them I encourage to google

"Curing trigger freeze and flinching book" to learn the cause of their flinch.
Release is not the beginning and the end of solving flinch. Period.

 

He seems to have problems understanding the English language.

 

If he has a dog, I feel sorry for his dog to ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I fact I have a dog. I'm sure is smarter than you WPT.

 

Maybe "artur codrea can tell us how he judges the smartness of his dog. This could be a long drawn out explanation considering his reasoning about release triggers.

 

The reasoning about release belongs to an American Olympic champion Don Haldeman and from the logic the release is build.
and used.
Now, when comes to logic, well, I ask too much, I guess.....