Is there any Gun Clubs that will hold a shoot on Competitive targets

Come on Gun Clubs step up to throwing Really Legal 45 degree + targets @52 yards.

I will request to be put back on the 27 yard line and compete, even w/my Prosthetic Left Foot.

Lets find out ONCE AND FOR ALL when all shooters shoot the very same targets that once embraced American Trapshooting.

I would like to see the Cardinal Center hold several all handicap 100 & 200 bird events w/ Monies and Guns as Prizes/Awards to the winning shooters from each Yardage, no special categories in any event, just like it used to be.

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant.......................................Dr.longshot

 

Gary,
The game has been altered for way to long, doubt you will get any club to throw a target as you describe unless it would be non registered on the order of games ... The people who protect and guard their averages would never get involved in any such thing as we all know ... I never had an average to guard or protect so I shot if there were targets in the air, still had fun ... If a club got set up for it and had a 3 day shoot, all handicap, all tough targets as you describe, non registered, eventually you might get enough people to make it worth while ... There is no doubt some shooters who would eat this stuff up, I am one of them but I am a long way from Kansas Toto so unless I was passing through it would be a long hard ride to get there on time ... People will shoot anything that fly's until they see they can't and won't win, then you will lose them slow but sure ... We had Friday night games, Fish and steak fry, and had a lot of people show up until some of the same people kept winning over and over and you would see lot of the shooters drop out ... I shot and had more damn fun than I ever had shooting registered, once the club closed no other club picked it up and there were many looking for that to happen, me included ... Talk to some people and see if you can put it together, nothing is impossible, though not very probably the way most of the newer shooters have been conditioned ... Got to start someplace ... But, you never know, you know ...! WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Bill.

I remember the home made cakes that the wives would bring to the Fri. night games. That was my favorite part, OH the steaks were not to bad either. The five for five from the front porch was a blast. Roger C.

 

Roger,

Still surprises me that one of the other (Avery) clubs didn't pick those Friday night shoots up, your right it was a good time, good food, good friends .... Red Mountain hosted them for awhile and once they closed it was all over ... Miss them ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Summer Dreams of a Trapshooter:

I want to give inspirations to youth shooters, to be the best shooter you can be. Watch the best and try to imitate them and also DO IT YOUR WAY. There is no better way than doing your best, I never attended or went to a Shooting School, I am self taught. I learned early that a gun has to fit you, if it don't fit it will not work for you. Your eye is the back bead that must align the center bead with the front bead, every time you mount the gun, it will change as you grow older and put on or lose weight.

I am a Handicap Shooter and I feel I am a good one. I can watch a shooter and tell what he is doing wrong. That comes from years of expierence. If you have an adjustable trapgun one with an adjustable comb, I can adjust it to fit you if it has enough adjustment. If you see me at a shoot just ask me to check your gun fit, and I will and I will go through the whole process Free with you to get it to fit you properly, and then watch you shoot and try to get that POI for you.

Over the years I have set up guns for shooters who are on the Ohio State Team or been on it. I have set up guns for many shooters over the years, I take pride in doing it. Some shooters are trying a new style of heads up shooting, but their gun is not set up for them to be proficient at it. Your head mount on the gun HAS to be the same every time form it to work properly, if not you will be shooting all over the place.

I personally want to get back to the way I used to shoot, but the problem is getting my Prosthetic Foot to work like my left leg used to work, in the proper position I need it to be in for Accurate Handicap Shooting.

I am going to ask the ATA to put me back on the 27 yard line where I used to be, and they can take those 2 2yard reductions back that were given without approval.

The Winchester Super Handicap Shells are extremely good at maximum yardage, Some will say, and they shoot 2 3/4 dram shells well at extreme yardage, but everything has to be right every time,

The Winchester Super Handicaps and Remington Nitro 27 are close @1235 Fps, But 1250 FPS in my personal expierence is the better shell, to my Style of shooting. I shoot a gun with an 18 inch POI, As I shot over the years I locked on the bird quicker and quicker, and in doing so I had to adjust my POI for obtaining that SMOKING THE TARGET I liked. If I do not center a target it is through a fault of mine, of not pointing the TRAPGUN Correctly.

I was a very, very good Handicap Shooter and I want to get back in the groove again, I have not been in it for a Year and a half now, and it is the Prosthetic Foot that has caused it.

I tried shooting the Handicap at CC during the Karens Cup, but could only manage to shoot 50 of the 100 targets due to back pain.

God willing and the Trapshooting Gods and the Creek does not rise I will get back there. Sooner than Later I hope.

I ask for your prayers for God to give me back my Handicap Ability

Look for Dr.longshot Embroided on the back of my Shooting Vest at shoots I attend..

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant.........................................Dr.longshot

 

Gary,
I don't think, per the rules you can request being put on the 27 yard line even if you were once on it, I think the rule states back to the 25, from there you have to earn it ... Now, if the targets are not registered you can shoot from the parking lot and the ATA could care less ... It would be interesting to see what kind of turn out a club would get if they set targets like you described and did not register them, which would not have any effect on anyone's average, for those that guard theirs ... I think if it was done right it could be fun and the clubs would make money ... The traps don't know the difference nor do the targets ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT I had 2 2yd reductions from the 26 yd line down to the 22, they may put me on the 26 Yd line, Increase has already been mailed in.

Gary Bryant.......................Dr.longshot

 

Gary,
I was just going according to what the rule book says ... If its not registered you or anyone can shoot from any place they want ... I didn't take the reductions, call it pride or stupid, I earned it and I am keeping it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Doc, You should see if Joe will delete this thread for you .....

Wanting "competitive targets" and "free yardage" in the same thread, is sure to cause you grief in the future .....

Not being able to gain the yardage on "easy/pu$$y" targets negates the "harder target" desire .....

 

Gary, you said above that "I was a very, very good Handicap Shooter". It only takes a few seconds of looking to see your handicap averages over the years. Only three times did you break a 90% average over a season, and that was by tenths of a percent. Now, perhaps they were harder targets back then. But when you call yourself a "very, very good Handicap Shooter" I expected to see averages around 95% or higher. It took the late, great Leo Harrison 7 years to break that level, but he never dropped under it again, including the year he passed. That is very, very good handicap shooting.

My son has beaten your highest ever average, and that was his first year shooting full time over 3000 targets. He's only been shooting for six years.

Perhaps you should stop condemning today's target settings and get yourself back to "very, very good Handicap Shooter" shape first.

 

Earth to James. Prior to the change in target settings there were few that had a 90 average from the 27. Almost none. The All American teams had shooters with averages barely over 90.

A score of 90 was once considered a great score. Your son's 90 average isn't worth a piss in a pot.

Let me know when your son gets to the back fence and shoots a 90 on three hole targets. BIG DON challenged the Doc to a shoot-off. They had those hard targets your son wishes he could shoot. They got a brick on the property commemorating the event. Hundreds were there to watch the spectacle.

Too bad you missed it. Too bad you dont have a clue about 3 hole targets. Too bad your kid's average is a piss in the pot.

 

James...dont forget those old 90 averages also reflected 1200 fps shells. Tough to shoot 1200 fps at wide angles. Not mentioned by Smithy is that there was a lot of cheating going on to get to the magic number of 90 plus from the 27.

 

Ok, I'll admit when I've made a mistake in judgement. So if I have no clue about 3 hole targets, educate me. I get that an extreme angle on a 3 hole will appear as a straightway from posts 1 or 5, vs those angles being between posts 1 & 2, or 4 & 5, respectively, on a 2 hole target. My question is, is that from the center of the post or the outside edge of the post? Because that makes a difference on the angles, too.

Not trying to be a jerk, just interested in learning.

 

Any "change" to "better" Trapshooting would have to include a no turn-down rule. If a whole target is thrown, you fire at it, period.

"More concrete" and/or "competitive/harder targets" would ONLY have the desired effect if ..... turning down targets, bank selections, and ALL FTF mulligans (including "flinching") were eliminated. A "dented primer" has no more value than the "wad" landing 2 feet in front of you, while the "shot" lands on top of the "trap-house".

It is impossible to beat those taking advantage of a corrupt system. "Target-Gate" should have opened more "eyes", but it did not. You can break any rules to win the BIG prize, the Grand American Handicap, and be easily forgiven. But speak ill of the the "ATA", and people call for "life-time bans" from the "ATA". And God forbid you use the word "hate" in total disgust of knowing too much "inside information".

"hate" .... "verb" "1. feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone)." ..... "noun" "1. intense or passionate dislike." ..... https://www.google.com/search?q=disgust&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=hate definition

 

Not being able to gain the yardage on "easy/pu$$y" targets negates the "harder target" desire .....

No need to call or write ATA - if you're so good, think all the modern targets are too easy, not for "real men" then show up at the 6 shoots at CC and it should be a piece of cake to shoot your way back to the 27.

 

A lot of folks dont want to pay extra SSS now to shoot with no reward. A club I shoot at throws the birds for $12 a hundred. Since they are not going to win money like in the past they figure why pay $35 per hundred. 200 hundred birds for a Sunday $24 vs 70.

 

James you don't have anything to apologize for.
The record you speak of shows the 3 years with a 90% average were after 2000.
This was done years after we started shooting 2 hole targets.
The same targets your son shot.

You made a fair comparison.

 

Columbus DID YOU not read where I tried to shoot handicap at the Karens Cup last hdcp, could not shoot all 100 caused by extreme back pain caused by Prosthetic Foot?

James344: I was denied ROOKIE of the year for shooting 100 targets in my first year 1968, for the year 1969. Not bragging but bringing to YOUR attention I had one of the HIGHEST handicap averages in the country in 1970-71 I believe, and those were not the targets you and others are shooting today.

I was very good at Handicap, I did not pick WEATHER and WIND conditions when I shot, I never shot to keep a High Hdcp Avg, I shot Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter, in Snow and Rain w/Glasses. I get tired of people jumping on me everytime I post something I disagree with, and you do not post with your Name to get Flak Back.

I did write ATA to be put back on the 27 as a chair shooter, or the max yardage, Reason is the 22 yard line is not a competitive yardage for me and a mistake the ATA did by giving me 2- 2yard reductions from my last yardage of 26.

Wheteher you believe it or not I have been on the 27 yard line numerous times, over 25+ years, I get moved up and then a few shoots later get moved right back.

I do not brag, shooters have come up to me aqnd said I did not know you had that high of an average on Sgls,& Hdcp over the years. They seen it in the Average books.

I was beat by a lady, NORA MARTIN for the Southern Grand Singles Championship, My first year shooting at Silver Dollar, I congratulated Her too.

I have had numerous 200 strts on singles, I just do not like singles, to me it should be only 100 targets, not an endurance run, you hardly ever make money on singles.

Brad Dysinger&,Dave Berlet and other old timer shooters know my ability and achievements.

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant......................................Dr.longshot

 

COLUMBUS: I will take you on any day of the week, Prosthetic Foot and all, The Gauntlet has been thrown!!

 

Apples to oranges. WTF Longshot is close to 100 and 344's son never shot 3 hole targets. Check LS scores and wins on 3 hole targets 25 years ago vs 344's son's score on 3 hole targets but then again the kid can only dream and his dad can only pretend his son shot 3 hole targets.

88 was a good average at one time from the 27. 96 on singles was the equivalent of 98.5 today. Telling someone that has paid their dues like LS and saying he needs to work at his game is whiny at best. BIG DON said the same crap.

 

Dont do it Columbus! It's a trick!

 

Waaaaaa, Waaaaaaa, it's not like it used to be; I wanna be a somebody. (All you have to do Gary, to get your fame back, is prove me wrong - shoot from your chair, shoot from your car for all I care - show us all just how good you are - but you have to shoot more than your mouth)

 

Hmmmm....someone please translate. Columbus is backing out of a challenge or not? Who would be afraid of shooting against a one footed fellow that is older than most trees in the park?

 

Back "in the day", you could "read" the traps, and bad pulls were often turned down by the good shooters. Seldom did anyone think twice about it till guys like Handy made it so obvious it had to be addressed. I started in 92'. Made the 27 in 94'....at Vandalia. I noticed little difference when the 2 hole rule supposedly took affect in 95'.

When 90% of our ATA members can't even hold a 94 average in singles, it's doubtful our game is too easy, and except for a few great shooters, a 100 from the 27 is damn near impossible, especially when wind and clouds are involved.

Sand bagging is a bigger issue in handicap than anything else. I just shake my head when an 18- 20 yarder mystically shoots a 99 in the Caps at a big shoot when his average is 85.82 for the year.

And no one is required to even respond to childish "challenges" on a website. Someone needs to grow up! Were adults.....right?

 

Rosey, you're a mere child in this game. Heck, I've got more time on the potty at ATA shoots having started in 1972. That said, you are absolutely correct. Many great shooters were also quite adept at reading traps and sure knew how to straighten out the angles. Sandbaggers are plenty and I've never seen such a proliferation of so-called grown men standing on the 18-20 yd. line. Kinda funny though when you see top shooters who've accumulated thousands of unanswered yards from the fence getting beat by a 35 yo male standing on the 18-isn't it? Both are using the current rules to their advantage-aren't they?

The days of shooters accumulating tons of experience shooting game birds and taking that experience to the trap line are mostly over. Many of today's shooters are already overwhelmed by what's being thrown. Plenty of today's trap ranges, especially on the East coast, have experienced worsening background conditions over the years and the average trapshooter's age is certainly going up. Simply throwing tougher targets without accounting for ability and conditions is a recipe for disaster!

 

No body realizes I had a 100 in Handicap in 1970 from the 24.5 at the Springfield Ohio Sportsmans Club July 4th 1970 a day after winning my class in Doubles At the Kentucky State Shoot, shooting the same gun a Winchester Model 12 w/my Release trigger I built.

Targets today are nothing like the Targets in the 60s and 70s., That was Before Neil Winstons Time, of changing targets, and Blind Siding the ATA President Neal Causeby w/ with an end around play.

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant........................................Dr.longshot

 

And all that and 50 years no one won with a perfect score from the back fence on the GAH.

Fewer had that average with the wider angles. On 3 hole targets 94 was considered darn good.

Rosey, before the angles were changed I did not see a 100 from the handicap unless there were over a thousand at a shoot. Prior to '95 the only shoots I was at where scores like that were done was the OH State shoot and the Grand.

 

That was good shooting Gary, the targets have been changed, altered, and modified to suit the needs of the new and improved ATA so they can hand out trinkets and keep the New Generation of trap shooters coming back for more and keep them interested ... The Big Guns make it look easy and every one wants to be a winner ($$$$) ... The chances of the average shooter beating one of the top guns is slim at best, ($$$$) I recall seeing a chart and or graph depicting the low percentages on a good day though I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it, them ... The shooters coming into the sport today will probably never see the likes of the targets when a lot of us started, so they grow accustomed to when they do see and shoot, its not their fault that the game was changed before they got involved ... The Game shooters, Live Bird shooters, etc are and will always be the real shooters in most or many people opinions, but like yesterday, those days are gone ... The people who made trapshooting a career ($$$$) are going to use it until there is no more to take from it ... Have fun, break some targets, stand any place you want and enjoy ... I see a lot of people who used to shoot registered at the club shooting, they just gave up paying a premium to have them on their ATA record ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
When it comes to money bet on the Big Dogs ... ($$$$) ...

 

Doc,

Let's admit to the fact that the game of trap has been taken over by the girly boys of today. They can not measure up so they lower the bar, and most of them still do not measure up. It is sad but true. learn to live with it. It will never be the same again. Neal Causeby was treated very poorly by the ATA and the delegates in office at that time, He should get an apology from all of them. Roger C.

 

Smithy, I was gone for the weekend, but let me clarify my thoughts.

We now have better shells, voice releases, better, adjustable guns, and communication via google so damn near anyone can see a video about pitch, gun set up, How to this and how to that, and instant tips,....heck we can watch partial Harlan and Leo u-tube tapes for free just by googling "trap instructions". I learned by trial and error, and paid attention to some of the guys that had experience whether they offered it or not. No one "offered" to help a anyone get better back then. They didn't want the competition! Especially older trapshooters. Hell, I shot a 6" POI @32 yards in 94' now I shoot 14" at 28 yards.

Smithy, you are living in the past. Now there are bunches of sources for trap tips and info....it's common. DESIRE is the thing holding people back now, but then it was that way back then too. Why did Ricky live with Hoppe? ....to learn....and desire to be a top shooter. There was no other source in those days to expidite knowledge.

Oleo, You may think I'm a pup, but I've been on the 27 for 20+ years, and carried a 98.5+ average on singles. Age does not pre-qualify you for intelligence, knowledge, or ability.

Now if you consider guys like Willy Anderson, Munson, Kaye, and some of the older guys that are still shooting good scores and adjusting constantly for their age, they have that desire! Even Big Don keeps pounding away , trying to improve, and guess what? He'll help anyone he can anytime, be it a youth shooter or a 10 year vet struggling...but he doesn't act like his shi7 doesn't stink or brag about how he shot in the 70's!

 

Not really Rosey. The illegal Silver Bullets were made to keep up with the hot feds. Prior to that the black magics crippled at both ends of the gun. Shells are no better since the target change.

Huh? We didn't have adjustable guns? I had them. Not you?

Kay Ohye, Frank Little, Brad Dysinger and others warned the ATA. Dont tell me I am living in the past. I learned from the past.

That is pure BS. You never read Frank Little's articles, or Brad's? We had several All Americans from my area that gave lesson for free.

Did you read that Rosey? The All Americans used to give lessons for free.

The so-called pros of today shoot at targets for pussies and if they thought they could handle tougher targets they would ask for them. I don't hear too many clamoring for that.

 

Rosey - - about the BIG DON statement.

He acted like that before the brick and no one cares how he shot in the 70's. We saw he could not handle wide angles in his LS shoot off. He has been nominated as a mod now.

 

Smithy, Is that why Brad had a 95.27 ave in 93' or Leo's 96 ave n 93'? Hawley's 94.53 in 93' or Little's 92.64 in 93 ans 94.58 in 92'?

then read the traps too?

 

20+ years ago.....things get bigger and better with time.

 

Rosey....see what those guys averaged (all the pros) at Vandalia where the targets were more regulated. Most of the All Americans at that time were shooting for average at shoots where good averages were easy to come by. Many shoot managers were throwing 2 hole targets. That is why the GAH was a good measure. All the best and the worst were at the same spot and the same day. And those at the back fence were not winning.

Tell me how many times those guys won a shoot at Vandalia with a 100, including the Ohio State shoot.

The Ohio State shoot offered $100,000 to anyone that could break 100. The insurance company was there to monitor target settings at 3 hole settings. Do you think the insurance company did not know the odds at that setting?

 

Christian, I was there. I read all the childish posts and chest pounding by both Gary and Don. Actually, I was surprised Don went thru with it, even if it was for a good cause.

Old Marines are more stubborn than a 80 year old traphooter.

Smithy, what years was that offer valid? Never heard that before, but like I said started in 94'

 

So you saw a year of 3 hole targets? Had I known that I would not have wasted the time typing.

 

Now Rosey, my 92.00 handicap average in 1976 was 33rd. high and my 98.28 singles average in 1998 wasn't too bad either. That said, trap reading no longer worked in the 90's, the 80's and some of the 70's. I know, I was there!

 

Those were both great year averages oleo. No doubt about it.

My point is that back then we had a tier of top shooters that ruled the roost. Dysinger, Leo, Dan, Frank L., and Frank H, and I bet you can name 15 or so more. Not unlike today, but we have a higher percentage of weekend warriors that can compete with them. Look at the Cardinal Classic on RJ Stuart and view the handicap winners. How many big dogs won a handicap event? Schaeffer won the first prelim. Are Chadwell and Wengard "BIG Dogs"? Around here they are, but not nationally.

The NSCA is going thru the same thing the ATA did. Their membership is complaining that a select few are still winning on difficult targets (Shooting 96 through 99 scores) while the vast majority is breaking 70's and low 80's and not liking it. The harder targets usually shot at the large premier events are actuallt scaring off "Joe shooter" because he doesn't want to be embarrassed with a score of 75.

The cover story on the last edition of Clay Target magzine was "Are Sporting targets getting too hard?"

It explains that membership is hovering around 25-27000, and they think many are not continuing to pursue registered targets cause they're getting too hard.

Egos are hard to manage.

 

"Egos are hard to manage"

Not if you hit them with a BRICK!

 

Come on Rosey....

Name the years those fellows won the GAH. Tell me when any of those guys won the OH State Shoot Handicap back then. I am guessing your are trolling. Name the years Rosey.

On Fri and Sat, at Vandalia, the weekend warriors used to roll in.

Rosey, they came in by the thousands. Not hundreds. Thousands! They were the shooters that dominated the shoots in the heartland of trapshooting. The ATA has since kicked them to the curb.

Again Rosey.....when we had the 3 hole targets the "average Joe" showed up by the thousands to shoot. Not once....for decades!

The average Joe shooter spent more money at the restaurants and bought more from the vendors. The west end of Vandalia was full of cars that had those weekend warriors sleeping in them. The Vandalia handicap, held Sundays, gave the weekend shooters another big event.

Enough of the rant for you Rosey. Study up.

 

How many showed up for the GAH at Sparta? 1784. What percentage of those only showed up for the event? Not many. Have to wonder where Rosey gets his material.

 

Answer: RJ Stuart.

2016 Dixie Grand handicap winners: BJ Jackman, Patrick Christopher, Thomas Freeman, Randolp thurlow, David Shaeffer**, Dennis Kennedy.

2016 Florida State Shoot handicap winners: Dillon Tosh, Jake Jacobs, Thomas Harrington, Steve Miller (TN), Willaim Bezubiak (Tied Debbie Ohye)

Buckeye Classic Handicaps winners: Gary Weisenberger, Steve Neuman, Bob Caplinger, Tom Neal, Kevin Polson.

Ohio State Shoot handicap winners: Pat McCarthy **, Mike Dehabey,Alex McCafferty, Bob Caplinger, Fred Gilliam, Tanner Cornett.

Cardinal Classic handicap winners: David Schaeffer**, Michael Wengerd, Michael Sherry, Howrd Daily, Todd Whitaker, Richard Granatir.

Keystone open winners: Harlan Campbell**, Stephen Macneal.

So, out of 30 handicaps in 5 big shoots in Florida, Ohio, and Penn, the Big Dogs (as shown by ** behind their names) won only 4. Hardly a dominance. If you want to see something more interesting, check all the winner names on the ATA site and ssee what yardage they were and what their averages were last year. You'll wonder how some of them broke those 97, 98, and 99 scores!

 

Rosey,

What question are you answering? You are non-sensical. You said there are more weekend shooters now but fail to understand that more showed up just to shoot GAH at Vandalia only than shot the GAH this year. The weekend shooters have left the sport.

If you can understand any math you can see the numbers at Sparta were the same most of the week! Terrible! NO WEEKEND SHOOTERS!

Only one 100 straight was shot at the GAH from the 27 before the target change. 50 years. Tell us again how the Big Dogs dominated the GAH.

Thousands showed up for just the weekend of the GAH before the target change and you say there are more weekend shooters now. Huh?

There was only around 1,000 in the OSTA handicap. Previously an extra 1,000 showed up just on the weekend but you still say there are more weekend shooters now.

So tell me the answer to the question that was asked of you. How many of those so called big dogs won the GAH before the target change? How many even shot a 99?

 

FG, I'm not talking about Sparta or GAH ....what is this thread about? Gary's first post wanting the old target setting...3 hole. As usual, the thread meanders to the ills of Sparta instead of the main post point.

I'm just saying that the Big Dogs aren't dominating the handicap events, so why the constant hype to make the bird presentation harder?.

I never mentioned anything about Sparta, a Vandalia comparison, or how many shot the GAH. All my comments have been about bird presentations and if there is a dominance of the Big Dogs.

Don't look like it to me.

 

Gun clubs are not limited to any ATA rules, or regulations if a shoot in not registered, they can throw any target they wants outside of the guidelines in the ATA book if they can get people to shoot them ... Many, (most) shooters have never shot long, wide targets and they would appear to be intimidating to them ... We used to shoots them on Friday nights for the games, no body complained but a lot of shooters would not shoot because they figured they didn't have a chance to win ... Call it a reason or an excuse it was all for cheap fun and a good reason to get out of the house ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Rosey.......

What about the shooters leaving the sport because the handicap system is broken? The system was designed so that it would be difficult to stay at the 27. You are not supposed to get the "honorary yards." High scores from the back fence are to be ultra rare. Perfection is something the creators of the sport tried to eliminate. The handicap system is broke.

The targets at the GAH were regulated at 3 hole and the top shots almost always failed. The inflated averages were worthless when they got to real 3 hole targets. This is about presentation Rosey. It is about how the presentation worked.

You appear to be dead set against a harder target. You sound like a skeeter.

I can only guess you are another person struggling with the "occupy the 27 movement". (user 1 quote) The ATA and it's easy targets will die soon. The "Occupy the 27 movement" will play a big part of that end.

 

Didn't someone receive a lifetime achievement award for removing the "sport" from the sport. Time for a graph!

 

My advice is to look at the numbers of top shooters dominating multiple positions at or near the winners circle. After all, carrying averages in the low to mid nineties almost always guarantees these guys a significant part of the pot in a very high percentage of the events they enter. You'll often find short yardage winners are either sandbagging or having the day of their lives. The lucky ones seldom play much in options either.

The shoot I attended today was populated by some of the finest All-Americans-namely Malmstedt, Ohye. Cowert and Schaffer. None got a piece of the Calcutta and the guy who won didn't play a dime in options. Yes, it was darn windy and the scores were quite low.

That's why I maintain the position we need more concrete instead of wider targets as it only negatively affects the very best "big dogs"!

 

Oleo,

Yardage is the answer to evening the handicap game. Also #3 hole targets and 9 1/2 foot targets thrown 50 yards. I very much doubt if the girly boy shooters of today will ever go along with the correction. Roger C.

 

50+ yard targets are a killer from the caps. Also wind and wide angles.

 

You're right about sandbagging oleo, but as I previously stated, the NSCA is running stagnant in membership, and they think it's because the targets have gotten too hard. They were made harder by the target setters so the Big Dogs in sporting wouldn't run a course (which is an embarrassment to the target setters), while the weekend warriors are shooting high 70's low 80's and not liking it.

The weekend warriors need to practice more, get better, and deal with their class or work to move up.

In reality, there are few 100's, but like I said, egos are hard to deal with.

Carry on and solve the problems of the ATA while no one is listening!

 

Why are people whining about making the targets wider and faster when they can't maintain a break point average from their current yardage? Now I'm just a rookie compared to y'all but I'd like to see those 3-hole, faster targets and I'd also like to see no one shooting from inside the 20 and would definitely like to see mandatory yardage reductions.

 

Columbus, Those that can not maintain a high average think they should be in the top class. They did not practice shooting, they want to be good without putting in the effort. Trap is not a game for lazy people it takes effort and desire to run with the big dogs. If they only competed with them selves until they understand what it takes to be a good shooter they would be a lot happier with their progress. Roger C.

 

I'm acquainted with people who hold their 25-27 yd assignments as some kind of badge - but if you check their averages, everyone of them is low to middle 80s. ATA should be kicking these guys down 2 yds at a time until their average is above the 90% break point. The wailing and gnashing of teeth would be heard everywhere but kick them down anyway and make them compete, not just show up to shoot with their buddies.

 

Why do you say Vandalia GAH was more regulated regarding 3 hole targets? Based on the info HB posted, it sounds like the GAH was throwing 2-hole targets back into the late 50's? They threw 2-hole targets going back that far and 27 yarders were not winning. Well, there weren't that many 27 yarders back in the day anyway. Probably lots more now, anybody know the % of 27 yarders in the GAH now compared to say 1965?

 

Should not be a problem to put up some actual number comparisons...... Find a little range like most here shoot at and tell them what you want to do.... only takes a few minutes to change the traps. Shoot the "old" birds, shoot the "new" birds and post the scores. It does not have to be a registered ATA event to prove or disprove a point. Throwing words is fun for discussion purposes but throwing birds is where the "shot meets the target".
Locally we have a shooter with a prosthetic foot Doc. I can appreciate what you are experiencing by watching him. Of course JW is only 12 and he shoots for the pure fun and enjoyment only experienced by the young.... you ought to see him using the piano stool between new prosthetics......... Larry

 

Here's a story that was told to me just last week by my buddy Pat Owens who set the targets at the Grand back in the 70s. Now Pat and I still shoot together to this day. Pat was in the trap house and "Pappy" Web (Champion of Champion and Clay Target Champion
Who I shot with many time at his club in MD, was at the 50 yard stake. Pappy was yelling to Pat to put more spring so it would go to the stake. Pat cranked it up and the next target hit the top of the stake and when it hit the top of the stake it busted and a piece hit Pappy and gave him a good scratch. Pappy yelled back and said "perfect". Both Pat and Pappy set 3 hole 50 yd targets. Pat to this day likes 3 hole 50 yd targets.

 

Sure, just try Pocono Slate Belt gun club in Bangor PA. Straightaways from one and five post. Scores are a bit lower than average but the better shooters just eat 'em up. Average shooters are average for a reason!

 

If those guys come from MS they can accumulate multiple punches breaking scores in the mid to high 80's, make the 27 and brag about their yardage. All they need is 15 shooters (something they seldom get in any event) and they're on their way to stardom!

 

I don't have the answer but can provide some information for those who may be able to make a comparison.

First, a little history.

​

This young man registered his first 200 targets in 1963 and by the end of 1964 his handicap average was .8094 on 1700 targets. He came to the 1965 Grand American on the 19 yard line and was moved to the 20 after shooting a 98 in the Preliminary Handicap. The winning score was 99 and Daniel Pautler and Joe Roush, a 22 yarder had the only 98's. Daniel took third place. His 98 in the Preliminary and lone 99 in the Grand American Handicap tied the record set by Russell R. Barber in 1905. Mr. Barber won the Preliminary and Grand American Handicap that year. Conditions were windy.

As you saw above, there were 3031 entries in the 1965 Grand American Handicap event. Thankfully, in earlier years Trap & Field reported every shooters name, yardage and score. If my count is correct (should be pretty close), there were 64 27-yard shooters; 70 26-yard shooters and 96 25-yard shooters.

Of the 64 "Back Fence" shooters, only 24 scored in the 90's.
(95-1; 94-1; 93-1; 92-6; 91-9; 90-6)

Of the 70 26-yard shooters only 22 scored in the 90's.
(96-3; 95-0; 94-1; 93-4; 92-2; 91-7; 90-5)

Of the 96 25-yard shooters only 34 scored in the 90's.
(96-1; 95-1; 94-6; 93-9; 92-6; 91-6; 90-5)

Here are the total number of scores in the 90's.
99 - 1
98 - 5
97 - 17
96 - 38
95 - 47
94 - 92
93 - 127
92 - 185
91 - 195
90 - 205

It was reported that there were 1784 entries in this year's (2016) Grand American Handicap event. Again, if I've counted correctly, there were 575 who were handicapped at 27-yards. 15 of those did not shoot and 52 shot penalty 27-P.

The number of scores in the 90's from 27-yards were as follows:

99 - 2
98 - 4
97 - 8
96 - 32
95 - 33
94 - 54
93 - 46
92 - 54
91 - 67
90 - 59

I should mention that the 27-yard line was implemented in 1955. There were only 8 shooters in the country shooting from the extreme mark and one was a woman - Evelyn Primm. The 27-yard mark had been in use for 11 years at the time of the 1965 GAH.

Enjoy Our History !

 

A question gentlemen,
The qualifier for 3 hole is straightaway from post 1 and 5 ??
Last night I checked the angle from 1 and 5 at the second club I attend, last week I had checked the other club.
Both clubs have had new Pat traps in the last 3 years....... visually both clubs are throwing straightaway's from those two posts. Is that an indication they are throwing 3 hole targets?? Larry

 

How far were they going? Sounds like 3 hole. Distance with the angle kills.

 

Targets are set mostly with a radar gun. Distance stakes are often useless!

 

We do have a 50 yard stake but we use the radar gun in Wallowa for setting spring tension for registered events, with a wind in our face it is at the stake and with a tail wind it goes beyond. We use 42mph as the standard. Fun shooting and stuff we set it by the stake. LaGrande does the same. Larry

 

Tail wind drops targets short. It accomplishes that by driving them down-not up!

 

Ollie: Radar Speed AND Target Height adjustments must be correct for Distance accuracy.

Gary Bryant................................Dr.longshot

 

We use the radar gun and a T bar, we are basically shooting straight aways from 1 and 5 at 42mph. Does that equate to Doc's 3 hole targets? If so I guess we need to make an adjustment........ Larry

 

42 is slightly slow. 43.5 mph and those angles would give you a 3 hole target.

 

We do not have anyone complaining about the targets in Wallowa as long as we keep the trap centered. Seems trap 2 tends to gravitate to the right a bit from time to time and you hear about the "screaming right". I have not heard any complaints at all about LaGrande's birds. Probably no real need to change as long as the targets are legal... Larry

 

" 43.5 mph and those angles would give you a 3 hole target"

Now maybe you are really talking about something different, but what does speed have to do with a "3-hole" target setting? If the angle is already equivalent to 3-hole, that's what it is.

Larry, if you are throwing 3 hole targets, why would you have to make a change?

 

Bat....because the ole 3 hole target as he seems to be asking was to get the presentation they talk about here on the site. If they were 20 mph, not many here would call that a "3 hole target". The 3 hole targets used to go to the stake and wide. Not 47 yards with the plus or minus crap that does not add up. And yes, I get that there used to be a 3 hole on the machine.

 

Yeah, that's what I thought. Doc is talking about 3-hole, 52 yard targets, two separate factors. I guess Larry is worried about setting to those standards, not necessarily 3-hole targets in the angle sense? If he's currently throwing straights from 1 and 5 at 42 mph, his targets are certainly legal, that's the point I'm making.

 

I took a look at the ATA rule book and I supposed they were legal. My curiosity was "tweaked" by Doc's original post. My observations of angle were visual, it seems if we add a bit of speed (to 43mph) that perhaps we are throwing the competitive targets Doc is referring to. I would not have to change the traps and no one is asking that they be changed. My thought is that if most trap shooters are accustomed to the lesser angles because most traps are set to them the two ranges I shoot at would be in compliance with the norm. I plan on attending a shoot in Colton Wa. in a couple weeks. It is very possible I may be shooting at "easier" targets than I am used to. What is the difference in arc (swing) between the two settings? I know I could figure it out but I tend to be a bit lazy....... Larry

 

"What is the difference in arc (swing) between the two settings?"

About 5 degrees.

A 3 hole is about 44 degree total arc from straight away on post 3. From post 5, this arc is all to the right, so total is 44 degrees right of center from post 5.

A 2-hole hard right from 5 would be about 5 degrees less. 34 degree total arc, all of it is still to the right on post 5, but the left most angle starts about 5 degrees right of a straight away, then moves right the total 34 degree arc to get to about 39 degrees.

 

Thanks Bat,
I will get out pencil and paper n stuff and figure out the difference in barrel movement or maybe DS has the amount already figured. I understand a shooter East of here has some sort of electronic box to attach to the trap to set angles. I might give him a call to see what it is and how it works.
I started a conversation with a couple local shooters about the issue. They do not shoot registered ATA but are active in PITA. Both clubs I shoot at offer lots of trap, just not many registered.... Not a bunch of Oregon ATA shooters in Eastern Oregon......... Larry

 

You wont find PITA targets more difficult than ATA. Easier if anything.

 

Here they are exactly the same..... call the shoot any thing you want but the traps stay the same. PITA shoots do seem much easier as far as paperwork etc. Larry

 

Bat, If you set a 3 hole target at a height of 9 1/2 ft. and 43.5 mph. You will have the 50 yard target that we used to shoot. The angle will not change the distance or speed. It is the toughest target for a 27 yd. shooter to excel on. Many will do that. Add 3 yds. to the handicap position and you will have come close to evening up the handicap competition.

 

History has shown us that after every handicap yardage increase made by ATA Board of Directors handicap, a future Board votes and approves narrowing the target angles. That's my main objection to pouring 3 yds. more concrete.

 

Yeah Roger, that is my point. I thought posters seemed to be tying speed and angle into the definition of a 3 hole target, and I was simply trying to politely state that the 3 hole setting and speed were entirely separate issues.

 

HistoryBuff,
I guess that proves my point that the trap shooting sport is being taken over by the GIRLY BOYS. If the shooters want the harder targets then the delegates are lax in their duties when they do not over ride the changes made against the wishes of the members. Three more yards will not affect 90% of the shooters in a negative way. It will give them a better chance of winning at handicap. Now they are at a big disadvantage. Roger C.

 

Roger,

I think the majority of shooters do like the targets the way they are now. And most new shooters from 1997 to present don't know that targets were once wider and set without the use of chronographs, radar guns and levels (degrees) on the trap machines.

The reasons for the changes in target setting have been debated countless times over the years. One side felt it would not be beneficial for the sport; the other side felt it would. However, everyone should understand that it was not the narrowing of target angles alone which led to higher scores and averages. There were many other factors, mostly, in my view, due to the many amendments in the rules. I don't even place much weight that improvements in ammunition, guns and custom stocks had an impact. The introduction of voice calls certainly did.

Let's face it, those of us who believe that target presentation should have continued as the sport was created - "to serve as practice for hunting in the field" - are not many in number. Those who have no issue with the present day target settings will continue to shoot and continue to complain about all the high scores, shoot-offs and playing options that when they hit, they fail to even get their money back. Until somebody figures out how to reduce the number of 100's in handicap and doubles, and 200's in singles, shooters will enter fewer registered contests and continue wondering why there were four (4) 196's in "D" Class, carded in their State Singles Championship.

Straights should be a rare occurrence for all of us to marvel. If I'm wrong, give me some facts that will make me change my mind.

HB

 

Kenny,
I think the proof of was it better for the sport, or was it will be the downfall of it, has been fleshed out. The attendance has fallen off remarkably , and very few play any money at this time. I think it is time to the the pentulem swing back the other way. Setting the targets by degree is not accurate. Even Neil Winston agreed on that subject. The height pole should be required for setting height on all fields. Only one radar gun should be certified to set speed . Then with speed and height the same the distance would be correct
If the ATA mandated this and then enforced the rules this sport could be saved for future shooters to test their skill against the skills of the shooters of old. If the clubs do not follow the rules, give them one warning, then suspend them from registering targets. It may hurt the bottom line for a little while, but the sport will cleansed of the cheating clubs that are ruining this great sport.
Just maybe the new shooters would find out they liked the old rules better than the lack of rules we now have. The challenge may be what they are lacking. We will never know if it is not tried. Roger C.

 

Roger,

I can't see any view you've expressed in which I disagree with you. We're on the same page.

And to those who believe that harder targets and lower scores will lose shooters from the trap shooting game, I can agree that opinion seems to make sense, and admittedly, I once believed the same thing . . . . . however, I found its just not true.
Competitors go to where their chance to win prizes (both items & money) are best.

Past Executive Committees and Delegates who failed to enforce existing rules on target setting and who amended the rules to diminish the "luck" factor bear some responsibility for the current state of our organization. I'm sure they thought they were doing what was best for shooters and gun clubs, but they were incorrect in my view. There just wasn't enough knowledgeable leaders in place to resist the change, though there were some E. C. members and Board of Directors who worked hard to try. Why, because they too thought their view was in the best interests of the sport. I side with them.

One would think our current leadership might want to try something to improve the game and increase membership, but I'm probably wrong.

HB

 

Kenny,

I'm an optamist, I think there is hope for the sport. We need some new blood in charge that is not afraid of antagonizing some of the new players. I think we lost many shooters because of the rules fiasco. I told the EC, several years ago that they lost control of the ATA,due to their not enforcing the rules, and they may never get it back. The current leadership does not seem to have the ability to improve on any aspect of leading the organization. They seem to be more focused on trying to legitomize their past mistakes. Sad isn't it? Roger C.

 

I want to be optimistic.

Had there been someone within the leadership, knowledgeable of the early history of the sport, and who could show earlier recorded discussions of the same issues of today, I'm pretty sure the Board of Directors of earlier times would not have embraced many of the proposed changes presented in the "best interests of the sport."

Without the desire from both the membership and elected officials to learn a little about our history of trapshooting as it relates to today's issues, I don't believe there is much chance of restoration.

Yes Roger, it is sad. Sad that today's shooters do not know that trapshooting was reported in the early days to be a monotonous game and novelty events were added to the programs of many tournaments to attract contestants.

I believe it was 1884 at the International Clay Pigeon Tournament sponsored by the Ligowsky Clay Pigeon Company, that they hand a simulated quail walk event, gun down, no calling for the target and the trap was sprung corresponding with the number of steps taken by the shooter.

I've also reported about the "Joker Trap" staged at early Grand American's. The trap threw "screaming targets" and always drew a crowd of onlookers. Some gun clubs in 1904 started building towers to launch target from during events. Some clubs placed traps out in the trap field to throw crossing and incoming targets.

Tournament managers also learned that having 8, 10 and 12 small events of 10, 15, 20 and a couple of 25 target events increased attendance.

Sorry, I'll shut up now.

But I will leave you with an old newspaper article which appeared in the Wichita Eagle on Friday April 27, 1894. It was the world record set by our old friend Charles "Sparrow" Young, the Hall of Famer. Hope you enjoy reading about "Novelty Shooting."

Enjoy Our History !

HB

​

 

The Westy Hogan shoot at Elysburg didn't need a wider target today. The wind took care of the scores all by itself.

High-97-only one

Malmstedt-87

K Ohye-90

D Ohye-88

S Huber-91

H Campbell-90

S Hostetter-68

The list goes on and it wasn't pretty!

 

The current rulebook call for a target between 49-51 yds-the earlier one 48-52 yds. And the issue is what?

 

Oleolliedawg.
I have no problem with 49-51 yards. Many clubs say because of the lay of the land they can not accurately set a 50 yard stake. If 43.5 mph sets a 50 yard target on level land with no wind it should also set it on any type of drop area. The 8 to 10 foot height can be set with a pole. There are not many fields that a bench mark can not be set for the height pole, I have seen one or two that it was not possible. Roger C.

 

Now Roger, we're only talking about a yard or two difference in target thrown distance. I always set my old Western handsets to throw 48 yds. in the AM knowing they'd be closer to 50 yds. as the day progressed. It sure didn't affect former and deceased ATA All-American Charlie Sheckler who once broke a 99/100 from the 27. Our club faced South and into the sun too. Yes, our ground was quite level right out to the stake!

 

Ollie: Please explain why a Winchester/Western hand set traps would gain 2 yards later in the Day?

GB...........................DLS

 

The oil thins out the more you use them and they do pick up a little bit of speed (distance) ... That happens even in Arizona in the winter time when its in the 70's ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Thanks. It seems some people don't know as much about trapsetting as they think!

 

Oleo,

When we set them at Vandalia, we dry fired the machine about 5 times then we set a straight away and leveled the target and then corrected the straight away if needed., then we set the distance at 48 yards. As the spring warms up it will increase the distance about 2 yards.
I have not set targets on the Pats, I assume the act the same. Do not know about the rubber bands. They are not as consistant as the springs are. If 43.5 is the magic number for 50 yds. then use it where the 50 yard stake is not possible. I think 43.5 may be a little stiff. Roger C.

 

We checked our trap two for "old" angles Sunday and found that is what it is throwing, used our radar gun to set speed and the T bar for elevation..... normally we set at minimum height but this time we set at 9'. By the time we started shooting a very strong North wind had started. Birds travelled about 20 yards pretty normal and then took off for the moon. Most that were missed (there were more than a few) fell short of our 50 yard stake. Headwinds like that are not the norm so next week we will reset and try it again.... Larry

 

Targets are best set in still air to the required distance of 49-51 yds. over level ground to a stake. A knuckle slapping with a metal ruler to the fool who decides to add or subtract spring tension based on changing wind conditions. Oleolliedawg's trapsetting rule #1!

 

I totally agree with that Oleo, there was more than one shooter wanted to change the birds after the wind came up. At this particular range a "tail wind" is much more common and usually not too severe. It was dead calm at 7:30am when we were setting them but things did change. We did not have a tape measure handy but all understood "there will be consequences" if any try to reset the trap. Due to the topography the ground at 10 yards is 22" lower than the arm on the trap, we have a permanent pipe at that point to set the T bar in...... it's amazing that some folks complain about the trap setting without looking at the posts or the trap arm. Ground level at 50 yards is about 45" low so we have a mark on the stake at what would be ground level. Those same folks always feel the bird is going too far (bird lands behind the stake) even though we use the radar gun . Amazing how many complainers don't show up early to help or try to understand what is really taking place.... Larry

 

Larry, You did good. When I started shooting trap the targets were set in the morning and not changed for weather conditions (NEVER) is the key word. Once you have the speed and height set, it does not mater what else in happening the targets are set to the rules. Most of the complainers have never read the rule book or tried to set them at a shoot. The clubs are more to blame than the shooters. All they have to say is we set them prperly this morning and they will not be changed, unless the become totally out of adjustment. I'm talking registered targets, if they want to shoot lolly pops in practice let them. Roger C.