*Poll* Handicap Yardage 27 or 30

TT

 

The first statement ... "There has to be a degree of difficulty that is equal to all" ... certainly disqualifies the traditional handicap system...period. Running out of gun to successfully break targets is a real, undenialable fact which anybody should understand. Gee Whiz... I have no answers, but definitely value the technical, sensible ana!yses described by Mr. Winston here. Best Regards, Ed

 

How far out of gun to successfully break targets is Harlan Campbell at this moment? Since he carries a handicap average greater than most singles shooters I suppose a few more EARNED yards won't hurt much.

 

Keep the yardage at 16. Speed up the targets, widen the angle, and oscillate the thrower both vertically and horizontally. There is no need for any yardage greater than 16. If these changes don't sufficiently drop scores, limit loads to 24 grams.

 

The only way to EQUALIZE the Game of handicap is to add yardage. Why are most of you to dense to see that. Every one shoots the same target settings, how ever they are set. Yardage makes the difference. How many of you true 27 yard shooters have ever tried to shoot from the 30 yard. line? I have. I think Neil is way off base with saying that today's guns and ammo are not up to the challenge of the 30 yard. line. THE IDEA THAT THE EXTRA CEMENT WILL BREAK A CLUB IS B.S. They only need one field extended, and most clubs will never see any 30 yard shooters anyway. Roger C.
Lighter loads, slower shot speed, will only hurt the less accomplished shooters and you will still have the same problem.

 

Just a thought. Establish only one handicap yardage...say 27 which all clubs have....then set up a class system based on averages like used for singles....AAA, AA, A, B, etc. Then the degree of difficulty is equal for all. Your performance at that yardage will govern your class. Undoubtedly others have thought/suggested this, so flame away. Regards, Ed

 

"Just a thought" from Old Goat 2

I think the Old Goat's idea is worth setting up and you can forget the extended yardage construction.

Example of class based averages ...

1. HAAA ..... HAA ..... HA .....

2. HB ..... HC ..... HD

 

That's not true. You could use the same yard line and handicap by gauge or shot weight. A newbie would shoot 12 ga. 1 1/8 ounce loads, while Longshot is forced to use a 3/4 ounce load.

Backing up to the parking lot doesn't fix the problem of ATA-style Trap being too easy. A few weeks ago, I shot for the first time in a year, and the year prior saw three years since the last period of regular shooting. In my third round, I got a 24, and I was quickly back to the point where any misses were due to me daydreaming at the line, not being undermatched for the target.

Concrete is expensive. Spring is cheap. Less lead actually puts money in a shooter's pocket.

 

I see you know little about traps . Very few (almost none) have the capability of vertical oscillation. Spending another $8,500 each on thousands of new traps far exceeds the price of a few yards of concrete at a very few clubs.

Please don't come here and brag about breaking a 24/25. Break 4 of those at any respectable ATA shoot and you'll end up first loser in class D.

The game is already sufficiently challenging for over 90% of todays' shooters. If additional challenges were needed Bunker shooting would be overwhelmed by new participants. In case you're not aware you're currently hard pressed to find more than 10 participants at any Bunker shoot. Most shooters are simply not interested.

The one and only way to make handicap more competitive is to add concrete to those shooters who've pretty much mastered the 27 yd. line. While you're at it what's your current ATA handicap yardage? I'll be glad to provide mine anytime

 

Just what we need-a bunch of aging 19 yd. line shooters with 85% Singles averages flailing away at the 27. Do you really believe that event will improve Handicap shooting by increasing participation?

 

I have said this many times over in the past, no wings, it won't fly ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I figured this has been discussed and cussed quite a bit before...but I was thinking of the objective of EQUALIZING the trap challenge. If I have learned anything in my years of shooting games, no idea will ever get complete or even a fair and partial acceptance...someone will not like it. Adding concrete is, in my humble opinion, foolish. There are lots of ways to make the game harder for the 27 yard shooters. Oh well... Best Regards, Ed

 

We have let the game almost die by doing nothing. The money is gone from the game, the crowds are down too. Shooters are keeping the crowds up at places like the Cardinal Center as they are treated so well at that great facility with a good program. etc. For sure it is one one the best run shoots in the country. When Leo hit 1196 out of the 1200 there one year the game is far from a level playing field in handicap. I won the HOA. at the Buckeye two years ago I am not too discouraged but lots of the local guys in my area feel like they have no chance. I don't pretend to know what the answer is.

Look at the attendance at the Fall handicap in Missouri. They throw a faster and higher target, in just a few years that got them from almost a 1000 shooters on Friday and Saturday down to about 300.

 

An easy target is short-term gain but long-term deadly for the sport. We need to train a new crop of shooters to strive for an attainable, but not easy, average. The sport needs to be respected. Michael Jordan shot 49.7% from the floor. 95% of 49.7% is 47.2% and would also land you in the Basketball Hall of Fame. The best shooters shoot 300/300 for a 100% average. 95% is in ATA Trap is an average that a weekend shooter can reasonably and quickly attain.

 

Hate to break your heart but a 95%+ average is virtually unattainable for most shooters even on pussycat targets. Now tell us more about your plan to scrap all current machines and replace them with vertical oscillating ones and how that will increase attendance!

 

It's mathematically incorrect to calculate a percent from a percent.

 

So you finally gave us your ATA Singles average-47.2%. Step it up some!

 

I'm not sure the ATA wants guys like us anymore Terry.

 

Well, my heart was broken a long time ago by a sweet young redhead during college! I thought the dialogue here is supposed to be focused on how to find generally acceptable ways to save/grow the game we all enjoy called American Trap. As I read through all the ideas and how forcefully they are rejected, it certainly appears there is little realistic hope that ways can be found. I still enjoy shooting trap and listening to the bickering, but it does get kinda old. Regards, Ed

 

Until all handicap championships are totally dominated by 27 yarders I say leave it alone. I am not on the 27 as yet, but no one there scares me. People should concentrate on improving their OWN shooting and stop worrying about 27 yarders.

 

First check the dictionary for a definition of the word "handicap" then return with a rebuttal. Trust me, we're not discussing singles or doubles.

 

What's your point? What is there to rebutt?

 

"handicap"-race, contest, game etc. in which the better contestants are given special disadvantages and the rest are given certain advantages, so all have an equal chance to win.

I see you don't make many large ATA shoots where under-handicapped 27 yd shooters tend to dominate the event. If you're a simple trinket shooter who covets belt buckles or pewter plates rather than cash and seldom plays more than a Lewis class I suppose this definition doesn't pertain to you. The rest of us realize that way too many top shooters have stood at the 27yd. line for decades, carry handicap averages far in excess of a typical singles shooter and understand something needs fixing. Of course, some consider it a sort of badge of courage in playing all the options and handing their weekly grocery money to Harlan and the others. The rest of the money shooters left the game and drifted over to the casinos where the odds of a payoff are better.

 

I guess you cannot see properly I know very well that no SINGLE "under-handicapped" dominate the winning of championships events. I know Harlan or Leo never won the GAH. In the history of trapshooting in NY there was only one 100 ever shot from the 27 yds and that was in 2016. Who determines when to stop adding concrete? If you want to win money then up your game. Don't try to drag others down to your level by artificial means. I have won one handicap event in which many all Americans shot. I just don't play big money because I know I am not ready yet and I am just an "occasional" shooter. I live in the real world. Top shooters will always win some amount of money.

 

It is past time for a "Pro Class" .....

I have NEVER seen a "Home Town Hero" be able to compete on the same level as a full time "Pro" shooter ..... Trapshooting is no different than trying to compete with a "Pro Class" in any other "Sport" ..... You are "working" while they are getting better using the top of the line everything for FREE .....

If the top shooters can MISS more targets than a "Home Town Hero" may "shoot at" ..... that would a fools bet to many who NOW think "they have no chance" ..... Home Town Bubba can miss enough targets on the first post, of the first trap of a shoot, to have no chance of HAA or HOA ..... So, now it is spend several days and a bunch of money hoping for a plastic duck and an attendance pin .....

 

Here are the yardages and scores of the shooters for the Handicap Championship for the main tournaments shot in 2017. If you want to play the big money be prepared to shoot 97 plus, but you can do it.

 

Doesn't seem like the 27yders dominated the big events! Maybe more yardage will help!

 

The above quote made from planet dumb on dad's computer.

13 shoots.
1o yardages.
Almost 1/2 the shoots won from one yardage. 27

None from the 18

Proves 2 things. Tshot has to be nominated as the forum idiot and 27's are dominating.

 

So 50% of the winners stood on the 27 yd. line and by some posters logic 50% of the shoot entries also stood on the 27 yd. line. Must be some fabulous shooters attending these shoots where so few shoot from a lesser yardage. Short yardage shooters stay home!

 

So if there are 99% of new shooters on 20 yds line and 1% on the 27 yds line the handicap system should be set up so that there is a 99% chance that a 20 yarder should win? Is this what you are saying??

 

If 10% of the shooters stand on the 27 while 50% of the wins are by them then the numbers are skewed in their favor.

 

The definition of handicap you posted mentioned "equal chance" so in these 13 events six 27 yarders and 9 non-27 yarders got the top score. Doesn't this meet the definition of "equal chance?" Or are you saying that everyone should be handicapped (keep adding concrete) until their average is the average of the league which might be in the low 80s, if that high. That would be true handicapping per your definition. Hope this is not what you are seeking.

 

If you keep adding concrete, sooner or later, you're going to have an accident, or an insurance company is going to insist on all shooters at the same line.

Handicapping by gauge or shot weight keeps everybody on the same line and lets us know who the truly great shooters are.

 

Smithy
50% is now dominating? As to the 10% being on the 27yd and winning half the time its because they are good! And they would on the 30yd to. The short yardage shooters have good days occasionally but the great shooters have many many more good days!

 

Back to prove again you can make a dumber statement. There are 10 yardage groups and half the time a 27 yarder wins? And you ask if that is dominating?

And then you say that is because they are good? Yeah you win. Just as dumb.

We know they are good. They won. OMG!!!!

It shows the handicap system isn't handicapping.
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Do us all a favor T. Have your dad proof read your posts.

 

There are 10 horses in each race. Half the time the same horse wins. Who do you bet on?

Who is confused?